¶
2016-09-30 11:42:54 UTC
It's always interesting to hear the answer's people give to the question asking "" who are the " them "" of whom God is
forgiving and forgiven of doing what ? in Lk.23:34.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/23-34.htm
Some say the soldier's and ruler's of the Jew's appearing at Christ's crucifixion... some include Pilate... while some say
these but not Pilate. Some say the " whole world " yet one malefactor became redeemed in his last hours while not the other
of the two... no such words of life were spoken to him by the Savior as was to the first. Do you really find the Holy
Scripture teaching that because some of Christ's killer's were " unaware "... " not knowing what they are doing "... of His
being the Living God indwelling a human flesh and blood body that this horrible death of the body, which they had an active
part in, exempts them from the murder of an innocent man ?
Man has the law of God written on his heart, Ro.2, so that he knows right from wrong without ever having the light of Holy
Scripture. We read in ver.12 that he will nonetheless perish. ( Amazing that the Co-Redeemer's claim Christ died for the
" whole world " when we clearly read not all are redeemed, De.29:20; Mt.12:32; Mt.7:21-23, et al.
Because Christ did not pay the wages of sin at Calvary as taught in Rev.13:8; Heb.9 and Heb.4:3 et al, but before He created
all things... before the arrival of this world and man... His sacrifice for sin did not come at the hands of man but by His
own hand, Jn.10:18. The Bible does not elaborate on exactly how God died for the payment of sins of His elect in a physical
human body before the foundation of the world, shedding His blood for the remission of sin and drawing a lottery to choose in
and of Himself, Eph.1:4; Col.1:12 ( " inheritance " same word as " lottery " ) who will reap the benefits of forgiveness of
sins... nonetheless, the Word of God clearly tells us Christ's death at Calvary was a demonstration, a manifestation of what
took place before time began when the actual sacrifice took place, Heb.4:3; Heb.9; Rev.13:8 et al.
This death of Christ for the remission of sin having taken place before the foundation of the world is further demonstrated
by finding such passages as Jn.3:16 in the past tense while recorded in real time along with the self-evidencing doctrine
that no one of the time before Calvary could possibly have been redeemed without the shedding of Christ's blood beforehand,
as Rev.13:8; Heb.9 and 4:3 teach since without the shedding of blood there is no remission, Heb.9:22.
This being the case, and never once do we find any doctrine teaching us out of Holy Scripture by the Holy Spirit of God that
it was at Calvary Christ's sacrifice looks backwards in time forgiving sin of God's OT elect... which included Peter, James
and John and the rest of the apostolic band, Mary His mother and all the rest we read of in the Gospel's... all truly elect
of God by the blood already shed of Christ before He ever went to the cross, being the Gospel's are OT and not New Testament
revelations... ( the non-elect are to this day " under " the OT for which sin is discovered in fallen man ) we find His
death at Calvary a " manifestation " or demonstration, a making apparent, of what took place before time began when Christ
was actually slain for sin, Rev.13:8, Heb.9; Heb.4:3; 2 Tim.1:9,10; 1 Pet.1:18-21, when all of God's were elect actually
chosen, Eph.1:3-14,et al, having then their names written into the Book of Life.
Who then is Christ speaking of when He says... " Father, forgive " them " for they know not what they do " ? The only people
of whom the Bible ever speaks of as being forgiven are the elect people of God since Abel. The change in a person at the
instant of regeneration does not move him to mock the Savior as was done by those deriding Him at the cross after Christ
pronounced the words of that passage of Lk.23:34. The elect were standing far back; some crying, while the non-elect openly
and loudly and proudly mocked Him. Such are not signs of regeneration since becoming born of God is an immediate change of
the inner man from death to life with the fruits of the Spirit overwhelming these to give thanks... not mocks.
We conclude therefore that Christ could not possibly have died in the stead of the non-elect forgiving them by way of this
statement recorded for us in Lk.23:34. We find no occasion of forgiveness granted by God except of that unto everlasting
redemption... otherwise all these who took part in His murder would be elect as well... which they are not. Neither is the
" whole world " encompassed by these words Christ spoke, Mt.7:21-23. This statement recorded in Lk.23:34 He made to the
Father insures us that as with all things of God His Word does not and can not fall to the floor, Isa.55:11... only the elect
of God are those covered by the blood of Christ's atonement in their behalf who are the forgiven... these are indwelt by His
Holy Spirit, Eph.1:13,14 and are assured by Him of their redemption, Ro.8:16, of which those who are not forgiven do not and
can not boast in the Lord of His work of atonement in their behalf.
We see evil is in this world from the fall of our first parents until Christ comes in glory which certainly is no sign of
forgiveness having benefited anyone other than the elect of God at any time in history. And since the events at Calvary were
a manifestation of what took place before God created this world and everything in it, we know that the Lord God's chosen
ones were those of whom Christ addressed on that occasion at the cross some two thousand years ago.
Because redemption is not tainted by fallen man in any manner as though to say fallen man's involvement with the necessity of
Christ to be put to death for sin in order to redeem the elect of God, which is to say... fallen man made redemption
possible... therefore the Lord Jesus had to shed His blood in behalf of His elect ones before time began as we discover from
the text already quoted... before fallen man actually entered the picture. Christ, by a mystery of God, required a human body
to be provided from which to die of without the necessity of Mary providing one and so we read in Gal.4:26... " But Jerusalem
which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Genuine redemption is by the Savior Jesus Christ, God Everlasting,
without and involvement by fallen man to make it happen, Ps.3:8; Col.1:18, et al.
Next up... the elect of God were chosen by " lottery, " Eph.1:11, " kleroo " to obtain by lottery... and, in this passage of
Eph.1:11 the elect were and are " predestinated " to receive the Promise... not by chance and not by some heretical scheme
they've " accepted Jesus as their Lord "so to receive redemption by a faith fallen man simply does not have, Mt.17:17.
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forgiving and forgiven of doing what ? in Lk.23:34.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/23-34.htm
Some say the soldier's and ruler's of the Jew's appearing at Christ's crucifixion... some include Pilate... while some say
these but not Pilate. Some say the " whole world " yet one malefactor became redeemed in his last hours while not the other
of the two... no such words of life were spoken to him by the Savior as was to the first. Do you really find the Holy
Scripture teaching that because some of Christ's killer's were " unaware "... " not knowing what they are doing "... of His
being the Living God indwelling a human flesh and blood body that this horrible death of the body, which they had an active
part in, exempts them from the murder of an innocent man ?
Man has the law of God written on his heart, Ro.2, so that he knows right from wrong without ever having the light of Holy
Scripture. We read in ver.12 that he will nonetheless perish. ( Amazing that the Co-Redeemer's claim Christ died for the
" whole world " when we clearly read not all are redeemed, De.29:20; Mt.12:32; Mt.7:21-23, et al.
Because Christ did not pay the wages of sin at Calvary as taught in Rev.13:8; Heb.9 and Heb.4:3 et al, but before He created
all things... before the arrival of this world and man... His sacrifice for sin did not come at the hands of man but by His
own hand, Jn.10:18. The Bible does not elaborate on exactly how God died for the payment of sins of His elect in a physical
human body before the foundation of the world, shedding His blood for the remission of sin and drawing a lottery to choose in
and of Himself, Eph.1:4; Col.1:12 ( " inheritance " same word as " lottery " ) who will reap the benefits of forgiveness of
sins... nonetheless, the Word of God clearly tells us Christ's death at Calvary was a demonstration, a manifestation of what
took place before time began when the actual sacrifice took place, Heb.4:3; Heb.9; Rev.13:8 et al.
This death of Christ for the remission of sin having taken place before the foundation of the world is further demonstrated
by finding such passages as Jn.3:16 in the past tense while recorded in real time along with the self-evidencing doctrine
that no one of the time before Calvary could possibly have been redeemed without the shedding of Christ's blood beforehand,
as Rev.13:8; Heb.9 and 4:3 teach since without the shedding of blood there is no remission, Heb.9:22.
This being the case, and never once do we find any doctrine teaching us out of Holy Scripture by the Holy Spirit of God that
it was at Calvary Christ's sacrifice looks backwards in time forgiving sin of God's OT elect... which included Peter, James
and John and the rest of the apostolic band, Mary His mother and all the rest we read of in the Gospel's... all truly elect
of God by the blood already shed of Christ before He ever went to the cross, being the Gospel's are OT and not New Testament
revelations... ( the non-elect are to this day " under " the OT for which sin is discovered in fallen man ) we find His
death at Calvary a " manifestation " or demonstration, a making apparent, of what took place before time began when Christ
was actually slain for sin, Rev.13:8, Heb.9; Heb.4:3; 2 Tim.1:9,10; 1 Pet.1:18-21, when all of God's were elect actually
chosen, Eph.1:3-14,et al, having then their names written into the Book of Life.
Who then is Christ speaking of when He says... " Father, forgive " them " for they know not what they do " ? The only people
of whom the Bible ever speaks of as being forgiven are the elect people of God since Abel. The change in a person at the
instant of regeneration does not move him to mock the Savior as was done by those deriding Him at the cross after Christ
pronounced the words of that passage of Lk.23:34. The elect were standing far back; some crying, while the non-elect openly
and loudly and proudly mocked Him. Such are not signs of regeneration since becoming born of God is an immediate change of
the inner man from death to life with the fruits of the Spirit overwhelming these to give thanks... not mocks.
We conclude therefore that Christ could not possibly have died in the stead of the non-elect forgiving them by way of this
statement recorded for us in Lk.23:34. We find no occasion of forgiveness granted by God except of that unto everlasting
redemption... otherwise all these who took part in His murder would be elect as well... which they are not. Neither is the
" whole world " encompassed by these words Christ spoke, Mt.7:21-23. This statement recorded in Lk.23:34 He made to the
Father insures us that as with all things of God His Word does not and can not fall to the floor, Isa.55:11... only the elect
of God are those covered by the blood of Christ's atonement in their behalf who are the forgiven... these are indwelt by His
Holy Spirit, Eph.1:13,14 and are assured by Him of their redemption, Ro.8:16, of which those who are not forgiven do not and
can not boast in the Lord of His work of atonement in their behalf.
We see evil is in this world from the fall of our first parents until Christ comes in glory which certainly is no sign of
forgiveness having benefited anyone other than the elect of God at any time in history. And since the events at Calvary were
a manifestation of what took place before God created this world and everything in it, we know that the Lord God's chosen
ones were those of whom Christ addressed on that occasion at the cross some two thousand years ago.
Because redemption is not tainted by fallen man in any manner as though to say fallen man's involvement with the necessity of
Christ to be put to death for sin in order to redeem the elect of God, which is to say... fallen man made redemption
possible... therefore the Lord Jesus had to shed His blood in behalf of His elect ones before time began as we discover from
the text already quoted... before fallen man actually entered the picture. Christ, by a mystery of God, required a human body
to be provided from which to die of without the necessity of Mary providing one and so we read in Gal.4:26... " But Jerusalem
which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Genuine redemption is by the Savior Jesus Christ, God Everlasting,
without and involvement by fallen man to make it happen, Ps.3:8; Col.1:18, et al.
Next up... the elect of God were chosen by " lottery, " Eph.1:11, " kleroo " to obtain by lottery... and, in this passage of
Eph.1:11 the elect were and are " predestinated " to receive the Promise... not by chance and not by some heretical scheme
they've " accepted Jesus as their Lord "so to receive redemption by a faith fallen man simply does not have, Mt.17:17.
---
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