Discussion:
Read here why JC was not the messiah after all
(too old to reply)
Eliyahu
2012-06-10 13:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Bs'd

Shalom dear readers,

Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
But now the truth is out. Look here:

https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12

Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.


Eliyahu
Linda Lee
2012-06-10 15:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
The info at your link states thus:

"Introduction.
For almost 2000 years the Jewish people have not recognized the New
Testament, although all those who contributed to the New Testament
were Jewish. All the writers of the New Testament were Jewish, but
nevertheless the Jewish people reject that which 1,000,000,000 people
consider to be the word of G.d."

So if Yahashua`/Jesus and his apostles and early disciples were simply
Jews just like yourself, as you appear to be saying, are you claiming
that the Jews in the first century did not condemn Yahashua`/Jesus and
his apostles and early disciples as blasphemers because he called
himself the Son of God, and did not condemn Yahashua` the Messiah to
be put to death by the Romans, nor imprisoned and beat the apostles
after Yahashua`'s death? It seems to me that modern-day Jews are more
like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected and condemned them than
you are like the Messiah, his apostles, and his disciples.

Your website also states this:
"The Old Testament can without any problem stand on his own, without
the New Testament."

If that is so, then all the prophesies of the OT concerning the
Messiah have not ever been fulfilled, so are you saying all those
prophesies were false? How can the OT "stand on his own" without the
fulfillment of its prophesies of the Messiah in the NT? Where is your
proof those prophesies will EVER be fulfilled if Yahashua` was not the
embodiment of the prophesied Messiah? The OT cannot stand alone.
Zev
2012-06-10 20:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
"Introduction.
For almost 2000 years the Jewish people have not recognized the New
Testament, although all those who contributed to the New Testament
were Jewish. All the writers of the New Testament were Jewish, but
nevertheless the Jewish people reject that which 1,000,000,000 people
consider to be the word of G.d."
So if Yahashua`/Jesus and his apostles and early disciples were simply
Jews just like yourself, as you appear to be saying, are you claiming
that the Jews in the first century did not condemn Yahashua`/Jesus and
his apostles and early disciples as blasphemers because he called
himself the Son of God, and did not condemn Yahashua` the Messiah to
be put to death by the Romans, nor imprisoned and beat the apostles
after Yahashua`'s death?  It seems to me that modern-day Jews are more
like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected and condemned them than
you are like the Messiah, his apostles, and his disciples.
I doubt if Eli would argue with this.
I certainly wouldn't.
Post by Linda Lee
"The Old Testament can without any problem stand on his own, without
the New Testament."
If that is so, then all the prophesies of the OT concerning the
Messiah have not ever been fulfilled, so are you saying all those
prophesies were false? How can the OT "stand on his own" without the
fulfillment of its prophesies of the Messiah in the NT?  Where is your
proof those prophesies will EVER be fulfilled if Yahashua` was not the
embodiment of the prophesied Messiah?
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
Post by Linda Lee
The OT cannot stand alone.
Linda Lee
2012-06-10 21:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
"Introduction.
For almost 2000 years the Jewish people have not recognized the New
Testament, although all those who contributed to the New Testament
were Jewish. All the writers of the New Testament were Jewish, but
nevertheless the Jewish people reject that which 1,000,000,000 people
consider to be the word of G.d."
So if Yahashua`/Jesus and his apostles and early disciples were simply
Jews just like yourself, as you appear to be saying, are you claiming
that the Jews in the first century did not condemn Yahashua`/Jesus and
his apostles and early disciples as blasphemers because he called
himself the Son of God, and did not condemn Yahashua` the Messiah to
be put to death by the Romans, nor imprisoned and beat the apostles
after Yahashua`'s death?  It seems to me that modern-day Jews are more
like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected and condemned them than
you are like the Messiah, his apostles, and his disciples.
I doubt if Eli would argue with this.
I certainly wouldn't.
If he wouldn't argue it, it belies his implication that, since he is a
Jew, he should know about this more than Christians. That was the
implication of his statement:
"All the writers of the New Testament were Jewish, but nevertheless
the Jewish people reject that which 1,000,000,000 people consider to
be the word of G.d."
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
"The Old Testament can without any problem stand on his own, without
the New Testament."
If that is so, then all the prophesies of the OT concerning the
Messiah have not ever been fulfilled, so are you saying all those
prophesies were false? How can the OT "stand on his own" without the
fulfillment of its prophesies of the Messiah in the NT?  Where is your
proof those prophesies will EVER be fulfilled if Yahashua` was not the
embodiment of the prophesied Messiah?
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
already were:

Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day,
and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and
thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up
out of his holy habitation.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
The OT cannot stand alone.
Eliyahu
2012-06-11 04:20:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
Zec 2:10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Bs'd

Where the English translations say "the LORD", there is written in the
Hebrew Y-H-W-H.

So Zech 2 says that the one and only God Y-H-W-H will dwell amonst
us. And Y-H-W-H is not JC.

So that prophecy is not fulfilled.



Eliyahu
Linda Lee
2012-06-11 14:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Linda Lee
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
Zec 2:10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Bs'd
Where the English translations say "the LORD", there is written in the
Hebrew Y-H-W-H.
So Zech 2 says that the one and only God Y-H-W-H will dwell amonst
us.   And Y-H-W-H is not JC.
So that prophecy is not fulfilled.
Yes, the King Messiah is indeed YHWH himself who brings righteousness
and thereby forgiveness of sins:
Jer. 23:6, "In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell
safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD
[YHWH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Post by Eliyahu
Eliyahu
Sam Taylor
2012-06-11 20:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Linda Lee
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Bs'd
Where the English translations say "the LORD", there is written in the
Hebrew Y-H-W-H.
So Zech 2 says that the one and only God Y-H-W-H will dwell amonst
us. And Y-H-W-H is not JC.
So that prophecy is not fulfilled.
Yes, the King Messiah is indeed YHWH himself who brings righteousness
and thereby forgiveness of sins:
Jer. 23:6, "In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell
safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD
[YHWH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

The Concept that YHWH would play His own
representative is Ridiculious.
You misunderstand the Meaning of Messiah.
G-D wouldn't need a Messiah if he was to do Anything.
Why would G-D have to pour oil on his Head to do Anything?
The Messiah is a representative of G-D and NOT G-D
or He is fooling the people He claims to Love.
you don't lie to those You love.
Sam
Post by Eliyahu
Eliyahu
Eliyahu
2012-06-12 02:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Linda Lee
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
Zec 2:10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Bs'd
Where the English translations say "the LORD", there is written in the
Hebrew Y-H-W-H.
So Zech 2 says that the one and only God Y-H-W-H will dwell amonst
us.   And Y-H-W-H is not JC.
So that prophecy is not fulfilled.
Yes, the King Messiah is indeed YHWH himself who brings righteousness
Jer. 23:6, "In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell
safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD
[YHWH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Bs'd

"and this is his name whereby he shall be called; Y-H-W-H is our
righteousness."

"In his days Judah will be saved,
and Israel will dwell in safety,[a]
and this is his name by which he will be called:
‘Yahweh is our righteousness.’" Lexham English Bible

"In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And
this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our
righteousness.’" English Standard Version Anglicised

"In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And
this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our
righteousness.’" English Standard Version

"During his lifetime, Judah will be saved and Israel will live in
safety. And his name will be The Lord Is Our Righteousness." Common
English Bible

So the name of the messiah will be: "Y-H-W-H is our righteousness".

There is no reason whatsoever to assume that the messiah is Y-H-W-H
himself.



Eliyahu
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 09:45:45 UTC
Permalink
The rabbis in the Midrash speak of Messiah son of Joseph who would die
and who would be 'resurrected' when Messiah son of David would come
(resurrected as Messiah, son of David).


Messiah, son of Joseph/Messiah, son of David = Yahashua` the Messiah
i.e. Jesus Christ.

The King Messiah, as the Midrash said, being the Messiah ben [son of]
Joseph who died and resurrected as the Messiah ben [son of] David and
who reigns forever as the King Messiah).

Yahashua`/Jesus the Messiah/Christ known as "the son of JOSEPH":

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus Himself was beginning to be about thirty years
of age, being (as was supposed) son of Joseph, son of of Heli,"

John 1:45 "Philip found Nathanael and said to him, We have found Him
of whom Moses wrote in the Law and the Prophets, Jesus of Nazareth,
the son of Joseph."

John 6:42 "And they said, Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose
father and mother we know? How now does this One say, I have come down
from Heaven?"

*

Yahashua`/Jesus the Messiah/Christ known as "the son of DAVID":

Mark 12:35 "And answering, teaching in the temple, Jesus said, How do
the scribes say that Christ is the Son of David?"

Mark 10:47 "And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began
to cry out and say, Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me!
Mark 10:48 And many warned him that he should be quiet, but he cried
a great deal more, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

Matt. 1:1 "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of
David, the son of Abraham."

Matt. 12:23 "And all the people were amazed and said, Is not this the
son of David?"

Matt. 15:22 "And behold, a woman of Canaan coming out of these
borders cried to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David!
My daughter is grievously vexed with a demon."

Matt. 20:30 "And behold, two blind men were sitting by the wayside.
When they heard that Jesus passed by, they cried out, saying, Have
mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!
Matt. 20:31 And the crowd rebuked them, saying that they should be
silent. But they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son
of David!"

Matt. 21:9 "And the crowds who went before, and those who followed,
cried out, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He who
comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!
...
Matt. 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful
things which He did, and the children crying in the temple, and
saying, Hosanna to the Son of David, they were angry."


Yahashua`/Jesus as King:
John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my
kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I
should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from
hence".
Eliyahu
2012-06-13 06:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
The rabbis in the Midrash speak of Messiah son of Joseph who would die
and who would  be 'resurrected' when Messiah son of David would come
(resurrected as Messiah, son of David).
Bs'd

Do you base your believes on the Midrash?

I don't.


Fact of the matter is: JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies,
and that's where it stops.

He was not the messiah.



Eliyahu, light unto the nations
Linda Lee
2012-06-13 12:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Linda Lee
The rabbis in the Midrash speak of Messiah son of Joseph who would die
and who would  be 'resurrected' when Messiah son of David would come
(resurrected as Messiah, son of David).
Bs'd
Do you base your believes on the Midrash?
I don't.
Judaism generally holds to it. And sometimes the Midrash agrees with
my beliefs. And although they have it somewhat skewed, due to the
prophesies that indicated the Messiah was a suffering servant (Isaiah
53), and other prophesies that showed him as a divine person from
Heaven (Dan. 7:13), a divine king that reigned forever (Isa. 9:6-7),
and even prophesies which combined the two types as a "King" who
arrives in a "lowly" condition and brings salvation (Zec. 9:9), the
rabbis did understand that the Messiah ben Joseph (Messiah son of
Joseph - the 'lowly' condition) would be slain and would resurrect as
the Messiah ben David (Messiah son of David - the kingly divine
condition), which is what Yahashua`/Jesus did when he died as the
priestly son of Joseph and resurrected as the King Messiah, the son of
David.

Dan. 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son
of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of
days, and they brought him near before him."

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the
government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called
Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The
Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no
end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and
to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even
for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Zec. 9:9 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of
Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having
salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of
an ass."
Post by Eliyahu
Fact of the matter is: JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies,
and that's where it stops.
The fact is that you don't understand the Messianic prophesies, nor
much of anything to do with them. You only expect a King and have only
a superficial understanding of the nature of that King.
Post by Eliyahu
He was not the messiah.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
Where is your "light"? Yahashua` the Messiah was the true Light to
the nations.
Zev
2012-06-11 05:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
Terry Cross
2012-06-11 07:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I am not waiting for the Second Coming. Most of the world has yet to
discovery the First.

TCross
Zev
2012-06-11 08:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I am not waiting for the Second Coming.  Most of the world has yet to
discovery the First.
You're waiting for the first?
At last, we have something in common!
Linda Lee
2012-06-11 15:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I am not waiting for the Second Coming.  Most of the world has yet to
discovery the First.
You're waiting for the first?
That's not what she said. Perhaps Terry would explain what she meant.
Post by Zev
At last, we have something in common!
Zev, this doesn't seem to agree with your recent post of the Rabbi who
told the Christian, in essence, 'You don't have to be wrong for me to
be right'.
Zev
2012-06-11 19:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Terry Cross
Post by Zev
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I am not waiting for the Second Coming. Most of the world has yet to
discovery the First.
You're waiting for the first?
That's not what she said. Perhaps Terry would explain what she meant.
Post by Zev
At last, we have something in common!
Zev, this doesn't seem to agree with your recent post of the Rabbi who
told the Christian, in essence, 'You don't have to be wrong for me to
be right'.
Reread the story.
Try to understand the pov of the characters.
Terry Cross
2012-06-12 22:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I am not waiting for the Second Coming.  Most of the world has yet to
discovery the First.
You're waiting for the first?
No. I said most of the world has yet to discover the First Coming. I
meant, why should Jesus bother making Coming of Jesus II while Coming
of Jesus I is still playing so well in the theaters? I was being
somewhat facetious.
Post by Zev
At last, we have something in common!
Many things, I am sure, but not that.

TCross
Zev
2012-06-13 05:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
I am not waiting for the Second Coming.  Most of the world has yet to
discovery the First.
You're waiting for the first?
No.  I said most of the world has yet to discover the First Coming.  I
meant, why should Jesus bother making Coming of Jesus II while Coming
of Jesus I is still playing so well in the theaters?  I was being
somewhat facetious.
So was I ;-)
Terry Cross
2012-06-14 04:41:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
I am not waiting for the Second Coming.  Most of the world has yet to
discovery the First.
You're waiting for the first?
No.  I said most of the world has yet to discover the First Coming.  I
meant, why should Jesus bother making Coming of Jesus II while Coming
of Jesus I is still playing so well in the theaters?  I was being
somewhat facetious.
So was I ;-)
O, ok. I tend to take everyone too seriously, even while I am joking
around.

TCross
Linda Lee
2012-06-11 14:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I didn't say that.
Zev
2012-06-11 14:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I didn't say that.
I said you're waiting for messiah too.
Is that true or false?
Linda Lee
2012-06-11 15:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I didn't say that.
I said you're waiting for messiah too.
And I said we're not waiting for prophesies of the Messiah, like in
Zec. 2:10-13, to be fulfilled, as you are. In other words, you're
waiting for ALL prophesies of the Messiah to be fulfilled; Christians
are waiting for some of the prophesies of the Messiah to be fulfilled,
and have seen many of the prophesies of the Messiah already be
fulfilled.
Post by Zev
Is that true or false?
I'm waiting for the end of the world and for God/YHWH, as the King
Messiah, to come and judge the world in "the second coming" (the King
Messiah, as the Midrash said, being the Messiah ben [son of] Joseph
who died and resurrected as the Messiah ben [son of] David and who
reigns forever as the King Messiah).
Linda Lee
2012-06-11 15:56:02 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 11, 11:02 am, Linda Lee <***@juno.com> wrote:
I'm waiting for the end of the world and for God/YHWH, as the King
Messiah, to come and judge the world in "the second coming" (the King
Messiah, as the Midrash said, being the Messiah ben [son of] Joseph
who died and resurrected as the Messiah ben [son of] David and who
reigns forever as the King Messiah).


Yahashua`/Jesus the Messiah/Christ known as "the son of JOSEPH":

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus Himself was beginning to be about thirty years
of age, being (as was supposed) son of Joseph, son of of Heli,"


John 1:45 "Philip found Nathanael and said to him, We have found Him
of whom Moses wrote in the Law and the Prophets, Jesus of Nazareth,
the son of Joseph."


John 6:42 "And they said, Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose
father and mother we know? How now does this One say, I have come down
from Heaven?"


*


Yahashua`/Jesus the Messiah/Christ known as "the son of DAVID":

Mark 12:35 "And answering, teaching in the temple, Jesus said, How do
the scribes say that Christ is the Son of David?"

Mark 10:47 "And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began
to cry out and say, Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me!
Mark 10:48 And many warned him that he should be quiet, but he cried
a great deal more, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

Matt. 1:1 "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of
David, the son of Abraham."

Matt. 12:23 "And all the people were amazed and said, Is not this the
son of David?"

Matt. 15:22 "And behold, a woman of Canaan coming out of these
borders cried to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David!
My daughter is grievously vexed with a demon."

Matt. 20:30 "And behold, two blind men were sitting by the wayside.
When they heard that Jesus passed by, they cried out, saying, Have
mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!
Matt. 20:31 And the crowd rebuked them, saying that they should be
silent. But they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son
of David!"

Matt. 21:9 "And the crowds who went before, and those who followed,
cried out, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He who
comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!
...
Matt. 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful
things which He did, and the children crying in the temple, and
saying, Hosanna to the Son of David, they were angry."
Linda Lee
2012-06-11 17:05:21 UTC
Permalink
I'm waiting for the end of the world and for God/YHWH, as the King
Messiah, to come and judge the world in "the second coming" (the King
Messiah, as the Midrash said, being the Messiah ben [son of] Joseph
who died and resurrected as the Messiah ben [son of] David and who
reigns forever as the King Messiah).

The Jewish rabbis in the Midrash (interpretations of the Hebrew
Scriptures) speak of two Messiahs n one: as Messiah ben Joseph who
would die for the sins of the people, and who would resurrect as the
Messiah ben David who would reign as the King Messiah and punish the
wicked. That is Yahashua` the Messiah who was born presumably as the
son of Joseph and who said he was the son of David and resurrected as
The King Messiah, the Son of David.

Yahashua`/Jesus the Messiah/Christ known as "the son of JOSEPH":

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus Himself was beginning to be about thirty years
of age, being (as was supposed) son of Joseph, son of of Heli,"

John 1:45 "Philip found Nathanael and said to him, We have found Him
of whom Moses wrote in the Law and the Prophets, Jesus of Nazareth,
the son of Joseph."

John 6:42 "And they said, Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose
father and mother we know? How now does this One say, I have come down
from Heaven?"

*

Yahashua`/Jesus the Messiah/Christ known as "the son of DAVID":

Mark 12:35 "And answering, teaching in the temple, Jesus said, How do
the scribes say that Christ is the Son of David?"

Mark 10:47 "And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began
to cry out and say, Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me!
Mark 10:48 And many warned him that he should be quiet, but he cried
a great deal more, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

Matt. 1:1 "The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of
David, the son of Abraham."

Matt. 12:23 "And all the people were amazed and said, Is not this the
son of David?"

Matt. 15:22 "And behold, a woman of Canaan coming out of these
borders cried to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David!
My daughter is grievously vexed with a demon."

Matt. 20:30 "And behold, two blind men were sitting by the wayside.
When they heard that Jesus passed by, they cried out, saying, Have
mercy on us, O Lord, Son of David!
Matt. 20:31 And the crowd rebuked them, saying that they should be
silent. But they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, Son
of David!"

Matt. 21:9 "And the crowds who went before, and those who followed,
cried out, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He who
comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!
...
Matt. 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful
things which He did, and the children crying in the temple, and
saying, Hosanna to the Son of David, they were angry."


*

Yahashua`/Jesus as the son of David, the King Messiah:

John 18:33 Then Pilate entered into the praetorium again and called
Jesus and said to him, Are you the king of the Jews?
John 18:34 Jesus answered him, Do you say this thing of yourself, or
did others say it to you about Me?
John 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief
priests have delivered you to me. What have you done?
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My
kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I
might not be delivered to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from
here.
John 18:37 Pilate then said to Him, Are you a king then? Jesus
answered, You say it that I am a king. To this end I was born, and for
this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness to the
truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.
John 18:38 Pilate said to Him, What is truth?...". [MKJV Bible]

*

Mat 21:1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to
Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and
straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose
them, and bring them unto me.
Mat 21:3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord
hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.
Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was
spoken by the prophet, saying,
Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto
thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their
clothes, and they set him thereon.
Mat 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way;
others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed,
cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh
in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Mat 21:10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was
moved, saying, Who is this?
Mat 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of
Nazareth of Galilee.
Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all
them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of
the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called
the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mat 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and
he healed them.
Eliyahu
2012-06-12 02:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
I didn't say that.
I said you're waiting for messiah too.
And I said we're not waiting for prophesies of the Messiah, like in
Zec. 2:10-13, to be fulfilled, as you are.  In other words, you're
waiting for ALL prophesies of the Messiah to be fulfilled; Christians
are waiting for some of the prophesies of the Messiah to be fulfilled,
and have seen many of the prophesies of the Messiah already be
fulfilled.
Bs'd

The authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by JC.

The christian claims of JC having fulfilled messianic prophecies are
just lies and nonsense.



Eliyahu
Eliyahu
2012-06-12 02:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Ploney Almoney, the Pharisee, wasn't Messiah either.
Doesn't prove anything or present any logical difficulties.
And remember, you're waiting for him too.
We're not waiting for prophesies like this to be fulfilled; they
You're not waiting for what you call the "second coming"?
You must be kidding.
Bs'd

I'm waiting for the first coming.


Eliyahu
Eliyahu
2012-06-11 04:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
"Introduction.
For almost 2000 years the Jewish people have not recognized the New
Testament, although all those who contributed to the New Testament
were Jewish. All the writers of the New Testament were Jewish, but
nevertheless the Jewish people reject that which 1,000,000,000 people
consider to be the word of G.d."
So if Yahashua`/Jesus and his apostles and early disciples were simply
Jews just like yourself, as you appear to be saying, are you claiming
that the Jews in the first century did not condemn Yahashua`/Jesus and
his apostles and early disciples as blasphemers because he called
himself the Son of God, and did not condemn Yahashua` the Messiah to
be put to death by the Romans, nor imprisoned and beat the apostles
after Yahashua`'s death?  It seems to me that modern-day Jews are more
like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected and condemned them than
you are like the Messiah, his apostles, and his disciples.
Bs'd

Your messiah was a false messiah who didn't fulfiill the messianic
prophecies. Who wants to be like a false messiah and his followers?
Post by Linda Lee
"The Old Testament can without any problem stand on his own, without
the New Testament."
If that is so, then all the prophesies of the OT concerning the
Messiah have not ever been fulfilled, so are you saying all those
prophesies were false?
Of course they are not false. It is just that they have not been
fulfilled yet. The messiah has not come yet.
Post by Linda Lee
How can the OT "stand on his own" without the
fulfillment of its prophesies of the Messiah in the NT?
There is no fulfilment of OT prophecies in the NT. That is just lies
and rubbish. The messiah hasn't come yet, so those prophecies have
not yet been fulfilled.
Post by Linda Lee
 Where is your
proof those prophesies will EVER be fulfilled if Yahashua` was not the
embodiment of the prophesied Messiah? The OT cannot stand alone.
The messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by JC.

Here are a few examples from my homepage here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among
the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me
that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of
old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time
that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his
brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand
and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of
the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto
the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the
Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our
palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight
principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the
sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he
deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when
he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in
the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon
the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of
many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion
among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down,
and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be
lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut
off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies:
"And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand
shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall
be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be
misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to
be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a
ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but
not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O
daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just,
and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt
the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and
the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he
shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea
even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in
those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace,
the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not
cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and
to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any
dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the
"second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it
written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come
again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus'
failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the
above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least
2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption.
Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and
coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I
will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and
prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his
days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is
his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause
the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall
execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall
Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name
wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the
messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem
shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two
thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the
redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'.
However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years
after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the
Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way
that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of
Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the
LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the
spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear
of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of
the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither
reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he
judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and
he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the
breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall
be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie
down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling
together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear
shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion
shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the
hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the
cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy
mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as
the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of
Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the
Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And
he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the
breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get
the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the
lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and
the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead
them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall
come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David)
and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the
messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be
killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years
later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And
also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon
or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled.
Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the
messiah.


And what proof do we have that God is going to fulfill those
prophecies in the future?

God has fulfilled already so many of them, I have faith he will also
fulfill the last ones about the messiah.

See how God is fulfilling the prophecies about bringing the Jews back
to Israel.

He did fulfill the prophecies about exiling them, and many others.

Here is something about why the OT is divinely inspired:

I believe that the Hebrew Bible is inspired by God, but with an
declining grade of inspiration.

The Torah, the five books of Moses, have the highest grade of
inspiration. After those come the prophetic books, with a lower grade
of inspiration, and after those come the "writings", which are books
like Esther, Proverbs, Job, Chronicles, etc. The writings start with
the Psalms, and they have the lowest grade of inspiration.

When using simple logic, we see that the additions to the Hebrew
Bible, like the NT, are not divinely inspired, and are therefore
rejected.
The Koran, partially based on the NT, collapses together with the
NT.

But why should we believe that the Hebrew Bible is divinely inspired?

Well, maybe because half the world (that is 2 billion Christians and 1
billion Muslims) believe that it is divinely inspired? The law of
the big numbers?

Queen Victoria of England once asked her prime minister, Benjamin
Disraeli: "Give me a proof that God exists." The answer was: "The
Jews, your Majesty!"

The history of the Jews should be enough proof of divine intervention
with that people. They left an enormous mark on the history of
mankind, and are still doing so. Mark Twain wrote about that the
following:

"To conclude. - If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but
one per cent. of the human race. [the correct number is only 0,2%] It
suggests a nebulous dim puff of star-dust lost in the blaze of the
Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is
heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet
as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly
out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to
the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music,
finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of
proportion to the weakness of his numbers.
He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has
done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself,
and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian
rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-
stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a
vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held
their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in
twilight now, or have vanished.
The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was,
exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his
parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and
aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces
pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

The whole story of Mark Twain, "Concerning the Jews" can be found
here: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1898twain-jews.html

The Jewish people make up about 0.2% of the world population.

Of all the Nobel price winners is about 30% Jewish. A 150 fold over-
representation.

Of all the official world chess champions is more than 50% Jewish. A
250% over-representation. Or, put in a percentage: A 25000% over-
representation.

Somebody on a religious message board started a discussion with the
following message:

"In the Bible it is written that whoever blesses the Jews, will be
blessed by God, and that those whom curse the Jews, will be cursed
themselves.
Isn't that proven in the ancient and modern history?
When a country was good for the Jews, that country was doing well.
And when the authorities turned against the Jews, than that country
went downhill fast.
When you look in the present, then you see: America supports Israel,
en their own Jewish Americans; America is economically and military a
superpower.
Europe: Sometimes positive, mostly neutral or critical towards Israel
and the Jews: Second rate economic superpower, and military dwarf.
Moslim countries: Very hatefull towards Israel, and to Jews in
general. Economically, military and culturally very backward.

What do you think about this?

An example: In the sixteenth century the Spanish deported all the
Jews. They were welcomed by the Netherlands and in the Ottoman
Empire. Culturally en economically it went from there downhill with
the Spanish, this despite their colonial empire. The Dutch and the
Turks had from then the wind in the back."

On this I answered: The above is simply a fact.
This is also confirmed by an enormous anti-semite, the founder of the
car factories; Henry Ford. He wrote a terribly anti-semitic book,
titled: "The International Jew", and in there he confirms the above.
Here is an excerpt from that book:

"There is a curious fact to be noted in connection with the
persecution and consequent wanderings of the Jews about Europe and
that is: wherever they wandered, the center of business seemed to go
with them. When the Jews were free in Spain, there was the world's
gold center. When Spain drove out the Jews, Spain lost financial
leadership and has never regained it. Students of the economic history
of Europe have always been puzzled to discover why the center of trade
should have shifted from Spain, Portugal and Italy, up to the northern
countries of Holland, Germany, and England. They have sought for the
cause in many things, but none has proved completely explanatory.
When, however, it is known that the change was coincident with the
expulsion of the Jews from the South and their flight to the North,
when it is known that upon the Jews' arrival the northern countries
began a commercial life which has flourished until our day, the
explanation does not seem difficult. Time and again it has proved to
be the fact that when the Jews were forced to move, the center of the
world's precious metals moved with them."

That book can be found here: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/intern_jew.htm
For my quote go to the end of chapter 13.

These remarkable facts are the sign which God has put in the Jewish
people.
God made a covenant with the Jewish people. About that covenant the
Jewish people said: "Everything the LORD has said, we will do and
hear". Ex 24:7.

Implied in that covenant is a blessing and a curse. When the Jews
break the covenant, the curse is poured out upon them.
When they uphold the covenant, beautifull blessings will be bestowed
upon them.

Like this it is written about the curse:

Leviticus 26:14-39: “But if you will not listen to Me and will not
perform all of these commandments, if you consider My decrees
loathsome, and if your being reject My ordinances, so as not to
perform all My commandments, so that you annul My covenant, then I
will do the same to you; I will assign upon you panic, swelling
lesions, and burning fever, which causes eyes to long and souls to
suffer; you will sow your seeds in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
I will turn My attention against you, you will be struck down before
your enemies; those who hate you will subjugate you, you will flee
with no one pursuing you.

If despite this, you do not heed me, then I shall punish you further,
seven ways for your sins. I will break the pride of your might; I will
make your heaven like iron and your land like copper. Your strength
will be spend in vain; your land will not give its produce, and the
trees of the land will not give its fruit.

If you behave casually with Me and refuse to heed Me, then I shall lay
a further blow upon you; seven ways, like your sins. I will incite the
wildlife of the field against you and it will leave you bereft of your
children, decimate your livestock, and diminish you; and your roads
will become desolate.

If despite these you will not be chastised towards Me, and you behave
casually with Me, then I too, will behave toward you with casualness;
and I will strike you, even I, seven ways for your sins. I will bring
upon you a sword, avenging the vengeance of a covenant, you will be
gathered into your cities; then I will bring pestilence among you and
you will be delivered into the hand of your enemy. When I break you
the staff of bread, ten woman will bake your bread in one oven, and
they will bring back your bread by weight; you will eat and not be
sated.

If despite this you will not heed Me, and you behave toward Me with
casualness, I will behave toward you with a fury of casualness; I will
chastise you, even I, seven ways for your sins. You will eat the flesh
of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. I will
destroy your lofty buildings and decimate your sun-idols, I will cast
your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and My Spirit will
reject you. I will lay your cities in ruin and I will make your
sanctuaries desolate; I will not savor your satisfying aromas. I will
make the land desolate; and your foes who dwell upon it will be
desolate. And you, I will scatter you among the nations, I will
unsheathe the sword after you; your land will be desolate and your
cities will be a ruin. . The survivors among you; I will bring
weakness into their hearts in the land of their foes. The sound of a
rustling leave will pursue them, they will flee as one flees the
sword, and they will fall, but without a pursuer. They will stumble
over one another as in flight from the sword, but there is no pursuer;
you will not have the power to withstand your foes. You will become
lost among the nations, the land of your foes will devour you. Because
of their iniquity, your remnant will disintegrate in the land of your
foes; and because the iniquities of there forefathers are with them as
well, they will disintegrate.”

Deuteronomy 28:15-69: “But it will be that if you do not hearken to
the voice of the Lord your G.d, to observe, to perform all His
commandments and all his decrees that I command you today, then all
these curses will come upon you and overtake you: Accursed will you be
in the city, and accursed will you be in the field. Accursed will be
your fruit basket and your kneading bowl. Accursed will be the fruit
of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the offspring of your
cattle and the flocks of your sheep and goats. Accursed will you be
when you go in and accursed will you be when you go out. The Lord will
send in your midst attrition, confusion, and worry, in your every
undertaking that you will do, until you are destroyed and until you
are quickly annihilated, because of the evil of your deeds, for having
forsaken Me. The Lord will attach the plague to you, until it consumes
you from upon the ground to which you are coming, to possess it. The
Lord will strike you with swelling lesions, with fever, with burning
heat, with thirst and with sword; and with wind blasts and with
withering, and they will pursue you until destruction. Your heavens
over your head will be copper and the land beneath you will be iron.
The Lord will make the rain of your land dust and dirt; from heaven it
will descend upon you until you are destroyed. The Lord will cause you
to be struck down before your enemies; on one road you will go out
against him, but on seven roads you will flee before him; and you will
be a cause of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. Your carcass
will be food for every bird of the sky and for every beast of the
field and nothing will frighten them. The Lord will strike you with
the boils of Egypt, with hemorrhoids, with wet and dry boils, of which
you can not be cured. The Lord will strike you with madness and
blindness, and with confounding of the heart. You will grope at
noontime as a blind man gropes in the darkness, but you will not
succeed on your way; you will be only cheated and robbed all the days,
and there will be no savior. You will betroth a woman, but another man
will lay with her; you will built a house, but you will not dwell in
it; you will plant a vineyard, but you will not redeem it. Your ox
will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will not eat from it;
your donkey will be robbed from before you, but it will not return to
you; your flocks will be given to your enemies, and you will have no
savior. Your sons and daughters will be given to another people, and
your eyes will see and pine in vain for them all day long, but your
hand will be powerless. A nation unknown to you will devour the fruit
of your ground and all your labor, and you will be cheated and
downtrodden all the days. You will go mad from the sight of your eye
that you will see. The Lord will strike you with a foul boil, on the
knees and the legs, that cannot be cured, from the sole of your foot
to your crown. The Lord will lead you and your king whom you will set
up over yourself to a nation that you never knew, neither you nor your
forefathers, and there you will work for the gods of others, of wood
and stone. You will be a source of astonishment, a parable, and a
conversation piece, among all the peoples where the Lord will lead
you. You will take abundant seed out to the field, but you will
harvest little, for the locusts will devour it. You will plant
vineyards and work them, but you will not drink and gather in, for the
worm will eat it. You will have olive trees throughout your
boundaries, but you will not anoint with oil, for your olives will
drop. You will bear sons and daughters, but they will not be yours,
for they will go into captivity. All your trees and the fruits of your
ground, the chirping locust will impoverish. The stranger who is among
you will rise higher and higher, while you will descent lower and
lower. He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him; he will be a
head, but you will be a tail.

All these curses will come upon you and pursue you and overtake you,
until you are destroyed, because you will not have listened to the
voice of the Lord your G.d, to observe all His commandments and
decrees that He commanded you.

They will be a sign and a wonder in you and your offspring forever,
because you did not serve the Lord your G.d amid gladness and goodness
of heart, when everything was abundant. So you will serve your enemies
that the Lord will send against you in hunger and in thirst, in
nakedness and without anything, and He will put an iron yoke on your
neck, until He destroys you. The Lord will carry against you a nation
from afar, from the end of the earth, as an eagle will swoop, a nation
whose language you will not understand, a brazen nation that will not
be respectful to the old nor gracious to the young. It will devour the
fruit of your animals, and the fruit of your ground, until you are
destroyed; it will not leave you grain, wine, or oil, offspring of
your cattle or flocks of your sheep and goats, until it causes you to
perish. It will besiege you in all your cities, until the collapse of
your high and fortified walls in which you trusted throughout your
land; it will besiege you in all your cities, in all your land which
the Lord your G.d has given you. You will eat the fruit of your womb,
the flesh of your sons and daughters, which the Lord your G.d had
given you; in the in the siege and distress that your enemies will
distress you. The man among you who is tender and very delicate will
turn selfish against his brother and the wife of his bosom, and
against the remaining children that he has let survive, not to give
even one of them of the flesh of his children that he will eat, not
leaving anything for him, in the siege and distress that your enemy
will distress you in all your cities. The tender and delicate woman
among you, who had never tried to set the sole of her foot on the
ground, because of delicacy and tenderness, will turn selfish against
the husband of her bosom, and against her son and daughter, against
the after birth that emerges from between her legs, and against the
children that she will bear; for she will eat them in secret for lack
of anything, in the siege and distress that your enemies will distress
you in your cities.
If you will not be careful to perform the words of this Torah that are
written in this Book, to fear this honored and awesome Name; Y-H-W-H
your G.d, then The Lord will make extra ordinary your blows and the
blows of your offspring; great and faithful blows, and evil and
faithful illnesses. He will bring back upon you all the sufferings of
Egypt, of which you were terrified, and they will cleave to you. Even
any illness and every blow that is not written in this Book of Torah,
the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. You will be
left few in number, instead having been like the stars of heaven in
abundance, for you will not have hearkened to the voice of the Lord
your G.d. And it will be that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to
benefit you and multiply you, so the Lord will cause them to rejoice
over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from
the ground to which you come to posses it. The Lord will scatter you
among all the peoples, from the end of the earth to the end of the
earth, and there you will work for the gods of others whom you did not
know, you or your forefathers, of wood and stone. And among those
nations you will not be tranquil, there will be no rest fore the sole
of your foot; there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, longing
of eyes, and suffering of soul. Your life will hang in the balance,
and you will be frightened night and day, and you will not be sure of
your livelihood. In the morning you will say: “Who can give back last
night!” And in the evening you will say: “Who can give back this
morning!” – because of the fright of your heart that you will fear and
the sight of your eyes that you will see. The Lord will return you to
Egypt in ships, on the road of which I said to you: “You shall never
again see it!” And there you will offer yourselves for sale to your
enemies as slaves and maidservants; but there will be no buyer. These
are the words of the covenant that the Lord commanded Moses to seal
with the Children of Israel in the land of Moab,”


And like this it is written about the blessings:

Leviticus 26:1-13; “If you will follow my decrees and observe my
commandments and perform them, then I will provide your rains in their
time, and your land will give its produce and the tree of the field
will give its fruit. Your threshing will last until the vintage, and
the vintage will last until the sowing; you will eat your bread to
satiety and you will dwell securely in your land. I will provide peace
in the land, and you will lay down with none to frighten you; I will
cause wild beasts to withdraw from the land, and a sword will not
cross the land. Five of you will pursue a hundred, and a hundred of
you will pursue ten thousand; and your enemies will fall before you by
the sword. I will turn my attention to you, I will make you fruitful
and increase you; and I will establish My covenant with you.

You will eat very old grain and remove the old to make way for the
new. I will place My Sanctuary among you; and My Spirit will not
reject you. I will walk among you, I will be G.d unto you and you will
be a people unto Me. I am The Lord (Y-H-W-H), your G.d, Who took you
out of the land of Egypt from being their slaves; I broke the staves
of your yoke and I led you erect.”

Deuteronomy 28:1-14; “It shall be that if you hearken to the voice of
The Lord, your G.d, to observe, to perform all of His commandments
that I command you this day, then The Lord your G.d will make you
supreme over all the nations of the earth. All these blessings will
come upon you and overtake you, if you listen to the voice of The Lord
your G.d: Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be
in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb, and the fruit
of your ground, and the fruit of your animals; the offspring of your
cattle and the flocks of your sheep and goats. Blessed shall be your
fruit basket and your kneading bowl. Blessed shall you be when you
come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. The Lord shall
cause your enemies who rise up against you to be struck down before
you; on one road they will go out toward you and on seven roads they
will flee before you. The Lord will command the blessing for you in
your store houses and your every undertaking; and He will bless you in
the land that The Lord , your G.d gives you. The Lord will confirm you
for Himself as a holy people, as He swore to you; if you observe the
commandments of The Lord your G.d, and you go in His ways. Then all
the peoples of the earth will see that the name of The Lord is
proclaimed over you, and they will revere you. The Lord shall give you
bountiful goodness, in the fruit of your womb, and in the fruit of
your animals and the fruit of your ground, on the ground that The Lord
swore to your forefathers to give you. The Lord shall open for you His
store house of goodness, the heavens, to provide rain for your land in
its time, and to bless all your handiwork; you shall lend to many
nations, but you shall not borrow. The Lord shall place you as a head,
and not as a tail; you shall only be above, and you shall not be
below; if you hearken to the commandments of The Lord your G.d, that I
command you today, to observe and to perform; and you do not turn away
from any of the words that I command you today, right or left, to
follow gods of others, to worship them.”
These curses and these blessings are a sign in the Jewish people
forever.
And that these blessings and curses come true, time and time again in
the Jewish people, even a blind person can see that.

There is no other people in the world whose members rise time and time
again to such extreme heights, and there is no people in the world
which is time and time again so horribly persecuted as the Jews.

The non-Jews know there is something different about the Jews. That
is clear because of the abnormal fixation of the whole world on the
Jews.
That is clear because of the fact that the holy books of a small
shepherd tribe from the Middle East are considered divinely inspired
by half the world.

It is clear that the miracles which God is working in the Jews, both
in the past and in the present, are a positive proof for the existence
of the Jewish God.


And there are of course the codes which God has hidden in the Torah:

On Torah, Science, and Using Your Abilities for the Sake of Hashem.


Mr Harold Gans is a fascinating personality. An accomplished
mathematician, he spent 28 years working for the National Security
Agency (NSA) in Fort Meade, Maryland. About 18 years ago, he began to
realize that he needed to use his talents to better serve the Ribono
shel Olam, and he became involved in researching and disseminating
knowledge of the Torah codes as proof of Torah min Hashamayim.
Subsequently he developed a series of lectures on Torah and science,
which he presented to varied audiences. Many have been inspired by his
lectures to learn more about Judaism and have ultimately pursued a
Torah life.


The most compelling aspect of Mr. Gans' philosophy is the message he
wishes to give Hamodia readers: Everybody has some talent that he or
she can use to serve Hashem and to make a difference in the Jewish
community. Even those who do not feel capable of becoming great
talmidei chachamiem have been endowed with some other talent which can
be put to good use. We visited Mr. Gans in his home, where we were
shown fascinating examples of Torah codes, learned about his various
lectures, and most of all, were inspired by his lecture.


What is your background?


I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and attended Torah Vodaath Elementary
School, and Gur Aryeh (a division of Yeshivas Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin)
for high school. I received a bachelor of science degree in
mathematics from Brooklyn College, and a master of arts degree in
mathematics from the Belfer Graduate School of Science of Yeshiva
University, where I was a National Science Foundation fellow.


In 1968 I was hired by NSA, and eventually became a senior cryptologic
mathematician. In that capacity I headed a groep of thirty individuals
who were developing mathematical tools to be used by cryptologists to
break military and diplomatic codes.

In 1968 I relocated from Silver Springs, Maryland, to Baltimore, still
employed by the NSA. In Baltimore, I met Rabbi Shlomo Porter, director
of the Etz Chaim Center for Jewish Studies. He was, and still is,
heavily involved in kiruv, and is very successful in that capacity. I
had never seen anything like that before; I had heard of kiruv, but
had never experienced it first hand. I was amazed and even jealous of
his positive impact on the Yiddishkeit of the many people he worked
with.

Interestingly, he later told me he was given a bracha by Rabbi Yaakov
Yisrael Twerski zt”l, the Hornosteipler Rebbe of Milwaukee, that
people should be envious of and emulate his accomplishments.


I began to wonder how I would be able to make an impact on the world.
One of my heroes had long been Rabbi Mike Tress, z”l, a businessman
who used his organizational skill to serve the klal. I knew that
Hashem gives every person skills and abilities that can be used to
serve Him and impact klal Yisrael. I understood how a talmid chacham
or a wealthy businessman could serve klal Yisrael, and I even
understood how a plumber or a technician could serve by working for a
shul or yeshivah or by helping Jewish families, but how could a
mathematician serve klal Yisrael?


A few years later I heard about the Torah codes. By nature I'm a
skeptic, and I need scientific of logical proof to be convinced of any
unusual claim. My wife encouraged me to research the topic, and I
agreed = in order to prove to here that it was nonsense. I attended an
Arachim seminar, heard a lecture on the Torah codes, and could not
find a single flaw in the material. I went home and reproduced their
experiment myself, and achieved the same results.

Subsequently I attended an Aish HaTorah Discovery seminar and came to
understand how many people were fascinated by these codes and other
evidence of Torah min HaShamayim. I also realized the impact that this
material was having on their lives, because it was proof that the
Torah could only be given by G-d. I realized that I could combine my
skills as a mathematician and computer programmer and my expertise in
public speaking to research and lecture on the Torah codes.

I felt that I had found my calling – the way that I could serve the
Ribbono shel Olam using my unique talents and abilities. Subsequently
I volunteered as a lecturer for Aish HaTorah, and was given the
opportunity to lecture in cities all around the world.



What are the Torah codes? How does math fit into the picture?


Torah codes refer to information that is encoded in the pesukim of the
Torah. Math is used to calculate the probability of finding those
letters in that specific configuration and spacing. The average person
cannot find and properly evaluate these codes; one has to be looking
for specific patterns, and then use computer programs to locate them.
We then use statistics to calculate the probability of these patterns
appearing randomly in the Torah. If the probability is less than one
in a thousand, we reject the possibility that it happened by chance,
and the patterns qualify as an authentic code. This criterion was set
by non-Jewish statisticians for establishing the veracity of the Torah
codes.


The concept of the Torah codes is not new. References to codes in the
Torah can be found in the thirteenth century commentary on the Torah
by Rabbeinu Bachyei, as well as in the sixteenth century Pardes
Rimonim by Harav Moshe Cordovo. Shortly after World War II, Harav
Mochoel Ber Weismandl, zt'l, wrote about codes in his sefer Toras
Chemed.

In recent years, the first individuals to research codes
scientifically, were Dr Eliyahu Rips, a professor of mathematics at
Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and Mr Doron Witztum. They designed
what is known as the “Great Rabbis Experiment”, in which they found
the names of Gedolim from the nineth to the eighteenth century encoded
in the Torah, in unusual close proximity to the dates of each ones
birth and death. Over 150 pairs of names and dates taken from an
encyclopedia were used in their experiment. Then they calculated the
odds of this happening “by itself” and obtained a probability of 1 in
62,500. This is more than 62 times stronger then the 1 in 1000
criterion mentioned above.


I performed a similar experiment and found the names of these Gedolim
together with the cities of each ones birth and death. The outcome of
this experiment has a probability of 1 in 250,000 of being due to
chance.

Whenever there is a major world event, we often find words describing
that event, with related dates, encoded in close proximity in the
Torah. We have found codes describing 9/11, the assassination of Osama
bin Laden, the Fukushima nuclear disaster in Japan in March 2011, the
capture and execution of Saddam Hussein, the 2004 tsunami in Asia, and
the disastrous re-entry of the spaceship Columbia that carried Israeli
astronaut Ilan Ramon.

We have done studies by taking the same words found encoded in the
Torah and searching for them in many control texts, such as Hebrew
translations of secular novels, but the probability never comes out
low enough to qualify as significant.



I understand that non-religious Jews find this inspiring, but what
about your typical frum-from-birth Jew? Why does he need to know about
this?


There are several answers to this question. First of all, it is
obvious that these codes are not due to chance, that is something
Hakadosh Baruch Hu put into the Torah. How can we not be interested
and inspired by them?

Second, Chazal tell us that in the days before Moshiach, knowledge of
the Torah will increase. Several Rabbanim, including Harav Moshe
Heineman, feel that these codes are one of those ways.

The third, and perhaps the most important reason is, that as much as
we hesitate to admit it, there are many of us who can benefit from
ways to strengthen our emunah. Often, after I lecture to frum
audiences, people come to me saying: “I have always believed in
Hashem, but these codes have strengthened my believe.”

I often get calls from yeshiva bachurim who have questions in emunah.
They find that the code and some of the other scientific material that
I lecture on give them the chizuk they are searching for.

There are significant numbers of frum people who need reinforcement in
their emunah, so that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the
Ribbone shel Olam wrote the Torah and rules the world. The Torah codes
offer such reinforcement. This kind of powerful evidence is something
that we cannot just ignore.



But weren't the Torah codes disproven in the scientific world?



The controversy began shortly after Mr. Witztum and Dr. Rips published
a paper on their “Great Rabbis Experiment” in the journal Statistical
Science in 1994. It reached a point where the same journal published a
paper written by an Australian computer scientist who purportedly
refuted the Torah codes and claimed the 1994 paper was a hoax.

Statistical Science refused to allow Rips and Witztum to print a
defense of their paper – something which is unheard of in professional
science literature, where the standard rule is that if a refutation of
a scientific paper is admitted for publication, the author of the
original paper is always given a chance to respond first.

In fact, Witztum and Rips were told that they would be given a chance
to respond, and then the journal backed down and would not allow it.


In 2006, at the 18th International Pattern Recognition Conference,
which took place in Hong Kong, there were six papers published in
support of the Torah codes. All of these papers were subject to peer
review, which means that fellow scientists reviewed the papers and
could note any flaw in the research or logic that they might find.
Were they to find an uncorrectable flaw, the paper would be rejected.

One of the papers that I co-authored proved that the original paper
describing the “Great Rabbis Experiment” was not a hoax, and that the
experiment with the rabbis and the cities of their birth and death was
valid. That paper referenced the critic's 1999 Statistical Science
paper, so that the reviewers could easily refer to it. According to
scientific rules. In order for critics to disprove the Torah codes,
they would have to find fatal flaws in each of the six papers
presenting a different approach and a different code. This happened
five years ago, and to date not a single flaw was found in any of
these papers. Therefore, for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes
have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over.

Unfortunately, most people don't know the critics have been disproven.
When scientists come up to me and try to dispute the validity of the
codes, I ask: “Can you find a fatal flaw?” They pause, and say: “No.”



What about the Jewish world? Do all of the Rabbanim agree to the
validity of the Torah codes?



There are critics in the Torah world, but not among the Gedolim. Mr.
Witztum and/or Dr. Rips have obtained haskamos for researching and
teaching the Torah codes from Harav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt'l, and,
ybl'c, Harave Shmuel Auerbach, Harav Matsyahu Salomon and Harav Moshe
Heinemann.

Harav Heinemann stated: “There are sources for the codes in Chazal.
The Chasam Sofer wrote about them – without the use of a computer – as
did Harav Michael Ber Weismandl. There is no question that they are
authentic.”



Can you give me an example of a Torah code?



There is an excellent example of a Torah code that revolves around the
Mumbai massacre in 2008. This code was discovered by researcher Dr.
Moshe Katz, and has an interesting story.

A few years ago I was in Israel, where is was scheduled to lecture on
the codes at Aish HaTorah. The day before the lecture I visited Mr.
Witztum, and told him about the Mumbai code. He asked me what
probability was associated with that code. When I replied that it had
not been calculated, he categorically dismissed the code. When I
subsequently told him that I was going to present the code the next
day, he exclaimed: “How can you present the code, without a
probability having been calculated?” I told him that there was nothing
he could say that would change my mind. I had already decided to
present it as an “esoteric observation”, rather than as a code, since
the associated probability was unknown. The next day, as I was driving
to the lecture, my cell phone rang. It was Witztum: “You must present
the code”, he insisted. He had stayed up half the night researching
and augmenting the code, and came up with a probability of 1 in
666,666 for the words “hatkafah” (the attack), “terror”, “Islami”, “in
Bombay” and “b-Beit Chabad”, all encoded near each other.

However, there was more. Dr. Katz had also found a picture of the
sefer Torah that had been torn during the attack on the Chabad House.
There was a bullet hole in the Torah, in the same place in the Torah
where the words k'ra, sefer, en Torah (“a sefer Torah was torn) were
encoded in the same pesukim!

Now, what is the probability of that happening by chance? There HAS to
be a higher being who wrote that Torah, knew this attack would happen,
and placed the code exactly in the spot that He knew the bullet would
penetrate thousands of years later. When I presented the code,
together with this story, a man literally fell of his chair.



Can you describe the lectures that you present on Torah and science?



I have two different lectures on the codes, one is standard, the other
goes into more detail. There are four other lectures I have developed
that use science to prove the authenticity of the Torah and the
existence of a G-d who created and is still involved in the universe.


In “Searching for G-d in a Test Tube” I present various scientifically
based lines of evidence that the Torah is true and that there must be
a Ribbono shel Olam running the world. Using statistics, we can proof
that things are not happening by chance. One illustration is the
miracle of the Persian Gulf war in 1991. It is well known that there
were 39 scud missiles fired at Israel. At least 9 of these fell in
residential areas, and there was only one death. Can we proof
scientifically that this was a miracle? In order to proof the
miraculous nature of this event, we need to examine what happens
outside of Israel.

On February 26, 1991, fell in Saudi Arabia, killing 27 people. On
October 8, 1980, three scuds fell in Dizful, Iran. The average number
of deaths per scud was 36.7. In Yemen in May 1994, there were three
Scuds, with an average of 14.7 deaths per Scud. Based on these
numbers, the probability of nine Scuds killing only one person is one
in nine hundred million trillion trillion trillion – that's a fraction
that has 43 zero's after the decimal point. That is a miracle!

Similar statistical results are obtained with Katyusha rocket attacks,
and suicide and car bombings, providing powerful mathematical evidence
that there is a Higher Being Who is truly watching over the Jewish
people.


The “Signature of G-d” lecture demonstrates that the universe is
balanced in such a way as to be perfectly suited for the existence of
life. There is a plethora of scientific evidence to show this. It is
highly improbable that this could have happened by chance. There are
many examples of this fine-tuning. One example of many is that if the
electromagnetic force that bonds all atoms and molecules would be four
percent weaker, there would be no molecules. This phenomenon, known as
“the anthropic principle”, is considered one of the most compelling
and intractable problems in theoretical physics today. The existence
of a Divine Creator neatly solves this conundrum.


The third lecture discusses the origin of life. The probability that
the smallest peace of DNA, an essential component of all cells, began
by itself, is so infinitesimal small that for all practical purposes,
it is impossible that it could have happened anywhere in the universe
since the beginning of time.

Scientists can offer no explanation. They can't disprove it, and yet,
they don't want to admit the existence of G-d. Biologist and Nobel
prize laureate George Wald once said that he prefers to believe in the
impossible rather than the alternative – which is believe in a
supernatural creation.



Where have you lectured?



I have lectured in eleven countries around the world for Aish HaTorah,
as well as several other organizations. I deliver an average of fifty
lectures a year in some twenty cities, with about sixty to 120 people
attending each lecture.

Before I speak or meet people who will ask me questions on emunah, I
daven to Hashem that I will find the right answers. I do not charge a
honorarium

for these lectures, they are done solely to help Klal Yisrael.



Are these lectures successful in inspiring people to become observant?



Occasionally I do receive feedback. A few years ago I was in Passaic,
New Jersey, for Shabbos, visiting a family member, and we davened in
the Bais Torah U'Tefillah, which is under the leadership of Rabbi
Menachem Zupnick. Rabbi Zupnick asked me to deliver a fifteen minute
talk at seudah shelishis. I used the time to speak about creation.

A year later, I met a frum looking young man, who approached me and
said: “Mr. Gans, because of you I am religious today. You see, I live
near a shul in Passaic, and I used to look out of my window every
Saturday afternoon and see all these Jews go into the synagogue. I
wondered what they did in there. One day I decided I would find out.
The next Saturday, I donned a kippah, and entered the shul. I saw a
table laid out with all sorts of goodies, and decided to stay. Then, I
heard you speak. In those fifteen minutes you highlighted so much
wisdom from the first three pesukim in Bereshis that I new I had to
find out more. Today I am completely shomer shabbos.

This is one story out of many.



This is really very fascinating! Any final message?



I just want to reiterate that one does not have to be a talmid chacham
or wealthy to serve Klal Yisrael. I just wanted to serve Hashem, and
He showed me the way.

Every person can serve Hashem in his or her unique way. Everyone has
some talent, some skill that can be channeled properly. If one has the
will and desire to do so, and asks Hashem for help, He will surely
show him the way.



And there is of course the fact that the Jewish religion, in
contradistinction to ALL the other religions, did not start with a
revelation to one man, but a revelation to a nation of millions of
people.

That says it all.

For the finer details look here:




Eliyahu
Linda Lee
2012-06-11 14:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
"Introduction.
For almost 2000 years the Jewish people have not recognized the New
Testament, although all those who contributed to the New Testament
were Jewish. All the writers of the New Testament were Jewish, but
nevertheless the Jewish people reject that which 1,000,000,000 people
consider to be the word of G.d."
So if Yahashua`/Jesus and his apostles and early disciples were simply
Jews just like yourself, as you appear to be saying, are you claiming
that the Jews in the first century did not condemn Yahashua`/Jesus and
his apostles and early disciples as blasphemers because he called
himself the Son of God, and did not condemn Yahashua` the Messiah to
be put to death by the Romans, nor imprisoned and beat the apostles
after Yahashua`'s death?  It seems to me that modern-day Jews are more
like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected and condemned them than
you are like the Messiah, his apostles, and his disciples.
Bs'd
Your messiah was a false messiah who didn't fulfiill the messianic
prophecies.   Who wants to be like a false messiah and his followers?
So you AREN'T like Yahashua`, his apostles, a and early disciples as
you've implied when you said "all those who contributed to the New
Testament were Jewish", as if you're Jewish 'just like them', which
was my point. You're like the Pharisees and Saduccees who rejected
him as the Son of God, the Saviour, and Messiah. THAT is who you
should have said you're like.
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Linda Lee
"The Old Testament can without any problem stand on his own, without
the New Testament."
If that is so, then all the prophesies of the OT concerning the
Messiah have not ever been fulfilled, so are you saying all those
prophesies were false?
Of course they are not false.  It is just that they have not been
fulfilled yet.   The messiah has not come yet.
Just because you're blind to it still, as the Scriptures say you would
be, does not mean he did not already come. Only the remnant of Israel
that will remain accepted him, as it is also written.


Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I then saw the Lord sitting
on a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphs; each one had six wings; with two
he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he
flew.
Isa 6:3 And one cried to another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is
Jehovah of Hosts; the whole earth full of His glory.
Isa 6:4 And the doorposts moved at the voice of the one who cried,
and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then I said, Woe is me! For I am undone; for I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
for my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of Hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, having a live coal in his
hand, snatched with tongs from the altar.
Isa 6:7 And he laid it on my mouth and said, Lo, this has touched
your lips; and your iniquity is taken away, and your sin purged.
Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send,
and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me!
Isa 6:9 And He said, Go, and tell this people, You hear indeed, but
do not understand; and seeing you see, but do not know.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears
heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear
with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn back, and
be healed.
Isa 6:11 Then I said, Lord, how long? And He answered, Until the
cities are wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and
the land laid waste, a desolation,
Isa 6:12 and until Jehovah has moved men far away, and the desolation
in the midst of the land is great.
Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return and be
consumed like the terebinth and like the oak being felled, yet has its
stump; the holy seed is its stump.
[MKJV Bible]


Yahashua` the Messiah said:
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they
see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said,
"By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you
shall see and shall not perceive;
Mat 13:15 for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears
are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time
they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should
understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should
heal them."
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for
they hear.
[MKJV Bible]
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Linda Lee
How can the OT "stand on his own" without the
fulfillment of its prophesies of the Messiah in the NT?
There is no fulfilment of OT prophecies in the NT.   That is just lies
and rubbish.   The messiah hasn't come yet, so those prophecies have
not yet been fulfilled.
Post by Linda Lee
 Where is your
proof those prophesies will EVER be fulfilled if Yahashua` was not the
embodiment of the prophesied Messiah? The OT cannot stand alone.
The messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by JC.
Here are a few examples from my homepage here:  https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among
the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me
that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of
old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time
that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his
brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand
and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of
the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto
the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the
Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our
palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight
principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the
sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he
deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when
he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in
the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon
the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of
many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion
among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down,
and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be
lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut
off."
"And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand
shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall
be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be
misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to
be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a
ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but
not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
     Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O
daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just,
and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt
the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and
the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he
shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea
even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in
those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace,
the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not
cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and
to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any
dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the
"second coming".
However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it
written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come
again in a second coming.
Your own rabbis in the Midrash speak of two comings of the Messiah:
as Messiah ben Joseph who would die for the sins of the people and as
Messiah ben David who would reign as the King Messiah and punish the
wicked. That is the first and second coming of Yahashua` the Messiah
who was born presumably as the son of Joseph and who said he was the
son of David. And we both know they base the Midrash on
interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Post by Eliyahu
This is a pure rationalization of Jesus'
failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the
above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least
2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption.
Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and
coming back thousands of years later.
     Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I
will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and
prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his
days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is
his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
That's right; Yahashua` the King Messiah IS "THE LORD [YHWH] OUR
RIGHTEOUSNESS", God incarnate as the Son of God, just as the Messiah
said he was.
Post by Eliyahu
     Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause
the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall
execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall
Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name
wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the
messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem
shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two
thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the
redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'.
However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years
after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the
Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way
that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
.
     Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of
Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the
LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the
spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear
of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of
the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither
reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he
judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and
he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the
breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall
be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie
down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling
together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear
shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion
shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the
hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the
cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy
mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as
the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of
Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the
Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And
he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the
breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get
the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the
lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and
the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead
them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall
come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David)
and ...
read more »
Sam Taylor
2012-06-11 06:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
The Messiah, as put forth by christians is a False G-D
there is but One G-D YHWH.
It is the NT that cannot stand alone, as it is Bassed upon the OT, not the
Other way around.
Just like the Holy Ghost is a Thing, not a Person, nor a G-D.
Sam
Eliyahu
2012-06-12 02:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Taylor
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
The Messiah, as put forth by christians is a False G-D
there is but One G-D YHWH.
It is the NT that cannot stand alone, as it is Bassed upon the OT, not the
Other way around.
Just like the Holy Ghost is a Thing, not a Person, nor a G-D.
Sam
Bs'd

Amen.

There is only ONE God who is ONE, and that is J-H-W-H.

Besides Him there is no other god:

Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know
that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H
is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign LORD ! There is no one
like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own
ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-
H is God and that there is no other”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O LORD , and there is no
God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O LORD , God of Israel, there is no God like you
in heaven or on earth”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my
servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and
understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there
be one after me"

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-
H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there
is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me
there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not
acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of
its setting men may know there is none besides me.

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take
counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the
distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from
me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and
be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no
other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H
your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God,
who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL
HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”


So everybody who worships something or somebody other than Y-H-W-H is
an IDOL WORSHIPER.

So worshiping JC is IDOLATRY!!!



Eliyahu
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 16:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Sam Taylor
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
The Messiah, as put forth by christians is a False G-D
there is but One G-D YHWH.
It is the NT that cannot stand alone, as it is Bassed upon the OT, not the
Other way around.
Just like the Holy Ghost is a Thing, not a Person, nor a G-D.
Sam
Bs'd
Amen.
There is only ONE God who is ONE, and that is J-H-W-H.
Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know
that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H
is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”
II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign LORD ! There is no one
like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own
ears.”
I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-
H is God and that there is no other”
I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O LORD , and there is no
God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”
II Chronicles 6:14 “O LORD , God of Israel, there is no God like you
in heaven or on earth”
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”
Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my
servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and
understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there
be one after me"
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-
H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there
is no God.”
Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me
there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not
acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of
its setting men may know there is none besides me.
Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take
counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the
distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from
me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and
be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no
other.”
Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H
your God, and that there is no other;”
Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God,
who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL
HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”
So everybody who worships something or somebody other than Y-H-W-H is
an IDOL WORSHIPER.
So worshiping JC is IDOLATRY!!!
Eliyahu
Why is one of the groups this cross-posts to alt.messianic.jewish-
orthodox when if Christians post to them, we get complaints from our
ISP for 'invading' their group and trying to evangelize them? Susan
Cohen did that very thing one time when I replied to one of her posts
to alt.messianic, and I had to point out I had not initiated the post,
and the accuser was in fact doing what she was accusing others of
doing. You're initiating this; no one is trying to evangelize YOU;
rather YOU are trying to convert Christians by posting to
alt.messianic, alt.religion.christian.lutheran, and
alt.messianic.yeshua - all Christian groups. But if we reply to your
post without editing the groups you have there, we're put in the
position of being accused.
Terry Cross
2012-06-12 18:34:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Eliyahu
So everybody who worships something or somebody other than Y-H-W-H is
an IDOL WORSHIPER.
So worshiping JC is IDOLATRY!!!
Eliyahu
Why is one of the groups this cross-posts to alt.messianic.jewish-
orthodox when if Christians post to them, we get complaints from our
ISP for 'invading' their group and trying to evangelize them?  Susan
Cohen did that very thing one time when I replied to one of her posts
to alt.messianic, and I had to point out I had not initiated the post,
and the accuser was in fact doing what she was accusing others of
doing. You're initiating this; no one is trying to evangelize YOU;
rather YOU are trying to convert Christians by posting to
alt.messianic, alt.religion.christian.lutheran, and
alt.messianic.yeshua - all Christian groups. But if we reply to your
post without editing the groups you have there, we're put in the
position of being accused.
Have you never wondered about the source of these sayings, Linda?

John 7:13
Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

John 9:22
These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the
Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was
Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

John 19:38
And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but
secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away
the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and
took the body of Jesus.

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when
the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the
Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be
unto you.

There was reason then and reason now. How long must you be faced with
this open hostility from the Jews before you can recognize it? They
complain of being hated, but the truth is they hate us.

TCross
Sam Taylor
2012-06-12 06:29:25 UTC
Permalink
What Christians don't get is they don't worship
the One True G-D Jesus taught, not that is taught
overwhelmingly in the NT.
They certainly don't Worship the G-d of the OT or Judaism.
for a jew to Worship Jesus would be blasphemious.
to both the One true G-D and the teachings of Jesus.
even though the claim to worship the G-D of Abraham,
Isaac, Jacob, and Moses.
Sam
Post by Sam Taylor
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
The Messiah, as put forth by christians is a False G-D
there is but One G-D YHWH.
It is the NT that cannot stand alone, as it is Bassed upon the OT, not the
Other way around.
Just like the Holy Ghost is a Thing, not a Person, nor a G-D.
Sam
Rod
2012-06-11 16:43:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian& messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Zev
2012-06-11 20:01:46 UTC
Permalink
   Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
   that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
Rod
2012-06-11 21:32:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Rod
Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
I'm trying not to go into specifics. <smiling..>
Zev
2012-06-12 09:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
    Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
    that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
   I'm trying not to go into specifics. <smiling..>
That's where the devil is ;-)
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 09:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
    Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
    that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
   I'm trying not to go into specifics. <smiling..>
That's where the devil is ;-)
The truth is also 'in the details'. Messiah ben Joseph/Messiah ben
David = Yahashua` the Messiah.
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 09:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
    Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
    that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
   I'm trying not to go into specifics. <smiling..>
That's where the devil is ;-)
The truth is also 'in the details'. Messiah ben Joseph/Messiah ben
David = Yahashua` the Messiah.
Rod
2012-06-12 10:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Rod
Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
I'm trying not to go into specifics.<smiling..>
That's where the devil is ;-)
No, my mother in law is in 6 feet under...
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 11:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
     Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
     that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
    I'm trying not to go into specifics.<smiling..>
That's where the devil is ;-)
   No, my mother in law is in 6 feet under...
More proof of 'a marriage made in Heaven' - NOT. Lol!
Rod
2012-06-12 20:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Rod
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Rod
Personally, I know you to be wrong, but you're so dense
that you'll just have to find out on your own.
Rod, that's about as lame as it gets.
I'm trying not to go into specifics.<smiling..>
That's where the devil is ;-)
No, my mother in law is in 6 feet under...
More proof of 'a marriage made in Heaven' - NOT. Lol!
I'm sure you would like it that way, but it isn't going to
happen to please you..
Michael Christ
2012-06-11 22:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
You make God known by who He is, not by who He is not; that is how you
love your fellow man.

You are trying to undo what is done.

What is done cannot be undone.

You got the Messiah you weren't expecting.

Isa_55:9 (KJV) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are
my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.



Michael Christ
Eliyahu
2012-06-12 02:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
You make God known by who He is, not by who He is not; that is how you
love your fellow man.
You are trying to undo what is done.
What is done cannot be undone.
You got the Messiah you weren't expecting.
Bs'd

What proof can you bring that JC was the messiah?

After all: He didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.....



Eliyahu
Michael Christ
2012-06-12 04:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
Shalom dear readers,
Hereby I want to tell you about the one true God, and give you
shocking facts and data that has been suppressed by the Christian
church for 2000 years. This was done by, amongst other things, burning
Bible translators on the stake, mass burnings of Bible translations
and corrupting Bible translations.
https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/12
Please send this message to every Christian & messianic Jew you know
and/or post it on every messageboard you can find. One way of loving
God is making Him known amongst the nations. One way of loving your
fellow man is revealing the falsehood he has been exposed to.
Eliyahu
You make God known by who He is, not by who He is not; that is how you
love your fellow man.
You are trying to undo what is done.
What is done cannot be undone.
You got the Messiah you weren't expecting.
I can give you proof, Eliyahu (Your name: indeed He is but you have
yet to recognise Him), but it is not the proof you are expecting.
Nevertheless, sorry, it is now on record...
Post by Eliyahu
Bs'd
What proof can you bring that JC was the messiah?
My testimony.

Here it is...
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Michael Christ
You make God known by who He is, not by who He is not; that is how you
love your fellow man.
...the truth.

Your message in the Spirit is contrary to it.

The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is not a testimony to what is not
to prove who He is.

Sorry Eliyahu, therefore you are not prophetic of Him, and your
testimony is false.

It is not complicated.




Michael Christ
Post by Eliyahu
After all: He didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.....
Eliyahu
Eliyahu
2012-06-12 05:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Eliyahu
What proof can you bring that JC was the messiah?
My testimony.
Bs'd

That's a bad joke.

So you confirm what I knew all along: Christianity does not have even
one single positive proof that JC was the messiah.

Het proof that he was not is in the fact that he did not fulfill the
messianic prophecies.




Eliyahu
Michael Christ
2012-06-12 10:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eliyahu
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Eliyahu
What proof can you bring that JC was the messiah?
My testimony.
(I can snip too :-)
Post by Eliyahu
That's a bad joke.
(snip)
Post by Eliyahu
Eliyahu
Thank you for your opinion.

If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.

You should understand that.



Michael Christ
Zev
2012-06-12 11:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
After Korah, there was no argument over it.

Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.

Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 12:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
They all heard it (and saw the miracles); but they didn't heed it.

From the days when they came out of Egypt, to the days of the Messiah
(and even to this day), they didn't obey the law.

In John 7:19 the Messiah said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and
yet none of you keepeth the law?..."

Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Post by Zev
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.

When we compare their response to the Messiah and their response to
Moses giving the law; we don't need revelation to see that the
response was the same.
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 12:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
They all heard it (and saw the miracles); but they didn't heed it.
From the days when they came out of Egypt, to the days of the Messiah
(and even to this day), they didn't obey the law.
In John 7:19 the Messiah said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and
yet none of you keepeth the law?..."
Num 21:5  And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6  And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7  Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8  And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9  And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Post by Zev
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.
When we compare their response to the Messiah and their response to
Moses giving the law; we don't need revelation to see that the
response was the same.
P.S.
It is no wonder that things today are the same. The Israelites have
always been a disobedient gainsaying people. They started worshipping
the golden calf, rather than YHWH, soon after seeing the miracles of
God when he brought them out of Egypt and the miracles afterward, the
manna, etc. And the prophets (see below, Moses in Deut. 32:21 and
Isaiah in Isa. 65:1) have long prophesied God would be revealed to
other nations, but still the Jews reject that it has happened, when it
has happened when God came as Yahashua` the Messiah and the Gentile
nations came to him to find glorious rest (Isa. 11:10 "And in that
day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of
the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be
glorious.")


Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is
written [Isa. 52:7], How beautiful are the feet of them that preach
the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith
[Isa. 53:1], Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound
went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith [Deut.
32:21], I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and
by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith [Isa. 65:1-2], I was
found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that
asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth
my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Isa 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of
them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation
that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a REBELLIOUS
PEOPLE, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own
thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of
brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their
vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am
holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth
all the day.
Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence,
but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers
together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the
mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure
their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the
cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so
will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah
an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my
serva
Zev
2012-06-12 14:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
They all heard it (and saw the miracles); but they didn't heed it.
From the days when they came out of Egypt, to the days of the Messiah
(and even to this day), they didn't obey the law.
In John 7:19 the Messiah said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and
yet none of you keepeth the law?..."
Num 21:5  And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6  And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7  Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8  And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9  And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Post by Zev
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
That's why the Torah was accepted and is known to you today,
despite the backsliding.
Stories of healing in remote towns and parental virginity aren't
enough.
My question stands.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
When we compare their response to the Messiah and their response to
Moses giving the law; we don't need revelation to see that the
response was the same.
P.S.
It is no wonder that things today are the same. The Israelites have
always been a disobedient gainsaying people. They started worshipping
the golden calf, rather than YHWH, soon after seeing the miracles of
God when he brought them out of Egypt and the miracles afterward, the
manna, etc. And the prophets (see below, Moses in Deut. 32:21 and
Isaiah in Isa. 65:1) have long prophesied God would be revealed to
other nations, but still the Jews reject that it has happened, when it
has happened when God came as Yahashua` the Messiah and the Gentile
nations came to him to find glorious rest (Isa. 11:10  "And in that
day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of
the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be
glorious.")
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is
written [Isa. 52:7], How beautiful are the feet of them that preach
the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith
[Isa. 53:1], Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God.
Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound
went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith [Deut.
32:21], I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and
by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20  But Esaias is very bold, and saith [Isa. 65:1-2], I was
found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that
asked not after me.
Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth
my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Isa 65:1  I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of
them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation
that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2  I have spread out my hands all the day unto a REBELLIOUS
PEOPLE, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own
thoughts;
Isa 65:3  A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of
brick;
Isa 65:4  Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their
vessels;
Isa 65:5  Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am
holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth
all the day.
Isa 65:6  Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence,
but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7  Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers
together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the
mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure
their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8  Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the
cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so
will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9  And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah
an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my
serva
Linda Lee
2012-06-12 16:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
They all heard it (and saw the miracles); but they didn't heed it.
From the days when they came out of Egypt, to the days of the Messiah
(and even to this day), they didn't obey the law.
In John 7:19 the Messiah said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and
yet none of you keepeth the law?..."
Num 21:5  And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6  And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7  Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8  And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9  And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Post by Zev
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
If the Israelites weren't impressed even by the parting of the Red
Sea, or the death of all the firstborns in Egypt, so that they soon
wanted 'another god', what would it have taken for the Messiah to
impress them in the first century? Pulling the moon down to the Earth?

The NT says that many more than followed Christ did believe, but for
fear of the priests, hid their belief.

Joh 7:11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is
he?
Joh 7:12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning
him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he
deceiveth the people.
Joh 7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

Joh 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of
Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he
might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came
therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you.
Post by Zev
That's why the Torah was accepted and is known to you today,
despite the backsliding.
Why? Since the Israelites saw all these miracles in Egypt and in the
desert, why did they soon dare to rebel against God and begin
worshipping the golden calf? The Scriptures say it is because they're
a rebellious unbelieving people. It seems to me that we wouldn't know
of the law of Moses today if God hadn't begun openly killing those who
spoke against him, as He did when he sent poisonous serpents among
them in Num. 21:5-9 (see above).
Post by Zev
Stories of healing in remote towns and parental virginity aren't
enough.
My question stands.
He raised the dead; I'd say that is a pretty significant miracle:

Luk 7:13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and
said unto her, Weep not.
Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him
stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he
delivered him to his mother.
Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath
visited his people.


You can say he didn't do many miracles, but the NT says he did, even
in Jerusalem.

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast
day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he
did.

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his
miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When
Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath
done?

John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of
God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a
man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among
them.

John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a
council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet
they believed not on him:

The prophesies that God/YHWH would be revealed to other nations and
joined to God occurred following the death and resurrection of the
Messiah; even fulfillment of that type of prophesy does not impress
upon you because you deny that Christ was God incarnate. and don't
understand how they were fulfilled. But some, the Israelite apostles
and early disciples DID understand.

Luke 7:16 "And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, _That God hath
visited his people."_

Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day,
and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and
thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up
out of his holy habitation.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
When we compare their response to the Messiah and their response to
Moses giving the law; we don't need revelation to see that the
response was the same.
P.S.
It is no wonder that things today are the same. The Israelites have
always been a disobedient gainsaying people. They started worshipping
the golden calf, rather than YHWH, soon after seeing the miracles of
God when he brought them out of Egypt and the miracles afterward, the
manna, etc. And the prophets (see below, Moses in Deut. 32:21 and
Isaiah in Isa. 65:1) have long prophesied God would be revealed to
other nations, but still the Jews reject that it has happened, when it
has happened when God came as Yahashua` the Messiah and the Gentile
nations came to him to find glorious rest (Isa. 11:10  "And in that
day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of
the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be
glorious.")
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is
written [Isa. 52:7], How beautiful are the feet of them that preach
the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith
[Isa. 53:1], Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God.
Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound
went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith [Deut.
32:21], I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and
by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20  But Esaias is very bold, and saith [Isa. 65:1-2], I was
found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that
asked not after me.
Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth
my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Isa 65:1  I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of
them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation
that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2  I have spread out my hands all the day unto a REBELLIOUS
PEOPLE, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own
thoughts;
Isa 65:3  A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of
brick;
Isa 65:4  Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their
vessels;
Isa 65:5  Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am
holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth
all the day.
Isa 65:6  Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence,
but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7  Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers
together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the
mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure
their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8  Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the
cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so
will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9  And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah
an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my
serva
Eliyahu
2012-06-13 06:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
If the Israelites weren't impressed even by the parting of the Red
Sea, or the death of all the firstborns in Egypt, so that they soon
wanted 'another god', what would it have taken for the Messiah to
impress them in the first century? Pulling the moon down to the Earth?
Bs'd

Linda, what is your proof that JC was the messiah?



Eliyahu
Zev
2012-06-13 06:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
On Jun 12, 1:02 pm, Michael Christ
Post by Michael Christ
On Jun 12, 7:10 am, Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
They all heard it (and saw the miracles); but they didn't heed it.
From the days when they came out of Egypt, to the days of the Messiah
(and even to this day), they didn't obey the law.
In John 7:19 the Messiah said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and
yet none of you keepeth the law?..."
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
If the Israelites weren't impressed even by the parting of the Red
Sea, or the death of all the firstborns in Egypt, so that they soon
wanted 'another god', what would it have taken for the Messiah to
impress them in the first century? Pulling the moon down to the Earth?
You won't understand it sitting at your computer
in an air-conditioned room with a hot sandwich
and cool drink at your side.
Apparently, under the circumstances,
the Israelites weren't as bad as you think.
Jeremiah 31:2 -
Thus says the Lord,
"The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness--
Israel, when it went to find its rest."
Post by Linda Lee
The NT says that many more than followed Christ did believe, but for
fear of the priests, hid their belief.
Fence sitters, and not enough to influence events.
But compare to Moses.
In Egypt at least, at first the Israelites
suffered because of Moses' intervention
and had plenty of reason to "hide their belief".
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Post by Linda Lee
Joh 7:11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is
he?
Joh 7:12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning
him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he
deceiveth the people.
Joh 7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
Joh 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of
Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he
might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came
therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you.
Post by Zev
That's why the Torah was accepted and is known to you today,
despite the backsliding.
Why? Since the Israelites saw all these miracles in Egypt and in the
desert, why did they soon dare to rebel against God and begin
worshipping the golden calf? The Scriptures say it is because they're
a rebellious unbelieving people. It seems to me that we wouldn't know
of the law of Moses today if God hadn't begun openly killing those who
spoke against him, as He did when he sent poisonous serpents among
them in Num. 21:5-9 (see above).
Post by Zev
Stories of healing in remote towns and parental virginity aren't
enough.
My question stands.
Luk 7:13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and
said unto her, Weep not.
Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him
stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he
delivered him to his mother.
Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath
visited his people.
Was Luke there, did he see this?
And remember, Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
It didn't entitle him to make dramatic changes in the Torah.
2 Kings 4:32-35
Post by Linda Lee
You can say he didn't do many miracles, but the NT says he did, even
in Jerusalem.
I can also say that God succeeded with Moses and failed with Jesus.
Post by Linda Lee
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast
day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he
did.
John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his
miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When
Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath
done?
John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of
God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a
man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among
them.
John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a
council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet
The prophesies that God/YHWH would be revealed to other nations and
joined to God occurred following the death and resurrection of the
Messiah; even fulfillment of that type of prophesy does not impress
upon you because you deny that Christ was God incarnate. and don't
understand how they were fulfilled. But some, the Israelite apostles
and early disciples DID understand.
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
Post by Linda Lee
Luke 7:16 "And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, _That God hath
visited his people."_
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day,
and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and
thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up
out of his holy habitation.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
When we compare their response to the Messiah and their response to
Moses giving the law; we don't need revelation to see that the
response was the same.
P.S.
It is no wonder that things today are the same. The Israelites have
always been a disobedient gainsaying people. They started worshipping
the golden calf, rather than YHWH, soon after seeing the miracles of
God when he brought them out of Egypt and the miracles afterward, the
manna, etc. And the prophets (see below, Moses in Deut. 32:21 and
Isaiah in Isa. 65:1) have long prophesied God would be revealed to
other nations, but still the Jews reject that it has happened, when it
has happened when God came as Yahashua` the Messiah and the Gentile
nations came to him to find glorious rest (Isa. 11:10 "And in that
day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of
the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be
glorious.")
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is
written [Isa. 52:7], How beautiful are the feet of them that preach
the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith
[Isa. 53:1], Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound
went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith [Deut.
32:21], I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and
by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith [Isa. 65:1-2], I was
found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that
asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth
my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Isa 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of
them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation
that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a REBELLIOUS
PEOPLE, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own
thoughts;
Isa 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of
brick;
Isa 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their
vessels;
Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am
holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth
all the day.
Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence,
but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers
together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the
mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure
their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the
cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so
will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah
an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my
serva
Linda Lee
2012-06-13 12:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
On Jun 12, 1:02 pm, Michael Christ
Post by Michael Christ
On Jun 12, 7:10 am, Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
They all heard it (and saw the miracles); but they didn't heed it.
From the days when they came out of Egypt, to the days of the Messiah
(and even to this day), they didn't obey the law.
In John 7:19 the Messiah said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and
yet none of you keepeth the law?..."
Num 21:5  And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6  And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7  Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8  And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9  And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
If the Israelites weren't impressed even by the parting of the Red
Sea, or the death of all the firstborns in Egypt, so that they soon
wanted 'another god', what would it have taken for the Messiah to
impress them in the first century? Pulling the moon down to the Earth?
You won't understand it sitting at your computer
in an air-conditioned room with a hot sandwich
and cool drink at your side.
Apparently, under the circumstances,
the Israelites weren't as bad as you think.
Jeremiah 31:2 -
Thus says the Lord,
"The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness--
Israel, when it went to find its rest."
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
The NT says that many more than followed Christ did believe, but for
fear of the priests, hid their belief.
Fence sitters, and not enough to influence events.
But compare to Moses.
In Egypt at least, at first the Israelites
suffered because of Moses' intervention
and had plenty of reason to "hide their belief".
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Joh 7:11  Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is
he?
Joh 7:12  And there was much murmuring among the people concerning
him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he
deceiveth the people.
Joh 7:13  Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
Joh 19:38  And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of
Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he
might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came
therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 20:19  Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you.
Post by Zev
That's why the Torah was accepted and is known to you today,
despite the backsliding.
Why?  Since the Israelites saw all these miracles in Egypt and in the
desert, why did they soon dare to rebel against God and begin
worshipping the golden calf? The Scriptures say it is because they're
a rebellious unbelieving people. It seems to me that we wouldn't know
of the law of Moses today if God hadn't begun openly killing those who
spoke against him, as He did when he sent poisonous serpents among
them in Num. 21:5-9 (see above).
Post by Zev
Stories of healing in remote towns and parental virginity aren't
enough.
My question stands.
Luk 7:13  And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and
said unto her, Weep not.
Luk 7:14  And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him
stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15  And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he
delivered him to his mother.
Luk 7:16  And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath
visited his people.
Was Luke there, did he see this?
And remember, Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
It didn't entitle him to make dramatic changes in the Torah.
2 Kings 4:32-35
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
You can say he didn't do many miracles, but the NT says he did, even
in Jerusalem.
I can also say that God succeeded with Moses and failed with Jesus.
You can say anything you want, but what you just said is false on many
levels.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
John 2:23  Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast
day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he
did.
John 6:2  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his
miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
John 7:31  And many of the people believed on him, and said, When
Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath
done?
John 9:16  Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of
God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a
man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among
them.
John 11:47  Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a
council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
John 12:37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet
The prophesies that God/YHWH would be revealed to other nations and
joined to God occurred following the death and resurrection of the
Messiah; even fulfillment of that type of prophesy does not impress
upon you because you deny that Christ was God incarnate. and don't
understand how they were fulfilled. But some, the Israelite apostles
and early disciples DID understand.
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.

It seems you really didn't have much to say.
Post by Zev
Luke 7:16  "And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
Post by Linda Lee
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, _That God hath
visited his people."_
Zec 2:10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day,
and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and
thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12  And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13  Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up
out of his holy habitation.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
When we compare their response to the Messiah and their response to
Moses giving the law; we don't need revelation to see that the
response was the same.
P.S.
It is no wonder that things today are the same. The Israelites have
always been a disobedient gainsaying people. They started worshipping
the golden calf, rather than YHWH, soon after seeing the miracles of
God when he brought them out of Egypt and the miracles afterward, the
manna, etc. And the prophets (see below, Moses in Deut. 32:21 and
Isaiah in Isa. 65:1) have long prophesied God would be revealed to
other nations, but still the Jews reject that it has happened, when it
has happened when God came as Yahashua` the Messiah and the Gentile
nations came to him to find glorious rest (Isa. 11:10  "And in that
day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of
the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be
glorious.")
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is
written [Isa. 52:7], How beautiful are the feet of them that preach
the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith
[Isa. 53:1], Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God.
Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound
went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith [Deut.
32:21], I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and
by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20  But Esaias is very bold, and saith [Isa. 65:1-2], I was
found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that
asked not after me.
Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth
my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Isa 65:1  I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of
them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation
that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2  I have spread out my hands all the day unto a REBELLIOUS
PEOPLE, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own
thoughts;
Isa 65:3  A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of
brick;
Isa 65:4  Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their
vessels;
Isa 65:5  Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am
holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth
all the day.
Isa 65:6  Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence,
but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Isa 65:7  Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers
together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the
mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure
their former work into their bosom.
Isa 65:8  Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the
cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so
will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9  And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah
an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my
serva
Zev
2012-06-13 17:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
On Jun 12, 1:02 pm, Michael Christ
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
If the Israelites weren't impressed even by the parting of the Red
Sea, or the death of all the firstborns in Egypt, so that they soon
wanted 'another god', what would it have taken for the Messiah to
impress them in the first century? Pulling the moon down to the Earth?
You won't understand it sitting at your computer
in an air-conditioned room with a hot sandwich
and cool drink at your side.
Apparently, under the circumstances,
the Israelites weren't as bad as you think.
Jeremiah 31:2 -
Thus says the Lord,
"The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness--
Israel, when it went to find its rest."
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
The NT says that many more than followed Christ did believe, but for
fear of the priests, hid their belief.
Fence sitters, and not enough to influence events.
But compare to Moses.
In Egypt at least, at first the Israelites
suffered because of Moses' intervention
and had plenty of reason to "hide their belief".
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Joh 7:11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is
he?
Joh 7:12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning
him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he
deceiveth the people.
Joh 7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
Joh 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of
Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he
might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came
therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you.
Post by Zev
That's why the Torah was accepted and is known to you today,
despite the backsliding.
Why? Since the Israelites saw all these miracles in Egypt and in the
desert, why did they soon dare to rebel against God and begin
worshipping the golden calf? The Scriptures say it is because they're
a rebellious unbelieving people. It seems to me that we wouldn't know
of the law of Moses today if God hadn't begun openly killing those who
spoke against him, as He did when he sent poisonous serpents among
them in Num. 21:5-9 (see above).
Post by Zev
Stories of healing in remote towns and parental virginity aren't
enough.
My question stands.
Luk 7:13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and
said unto her, Weep not.
Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him
stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he
delivered him to his mother.
Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath
visited his people.
Was Luke there, did he see this?
And remember, Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
It didn't entitle him to make dramatic changes in the Torah.
2 Kings 4:32-35
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
You can say he didn't do many miracles, but the NT says he did, even
in Jerusalem.
I can also say that God succeeded with Moses and failed with Jesus.
You can say anything you want, but what you just said is false on many
levels.
Look at the facts.
Moses didn't have to turn to the Gentiles to find followers,
who would eventually turn against the sources of
their new beliefs.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast
day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he
did.
John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his
miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When
Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath
done?
John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of
God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a
man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among
them.
John 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a
council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet
The prophesies that God/YHWH would be revealed to other nations and
joined to God occurred following the death and resurrection of the
Messiah; even fulfillment of that type of prophesy does not impress
upon you because you deny that Christ was God incarnate. and don't
understand how they were fulfilled. But some, the Israelite apostles
and early disciples DID understand.
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?

God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?

God had a son but they both always existed?
Post by Linda Lee
It seems you really didn't have much to say.
Luke 7:16 "And there came a
fear on all: and they glorified God,
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, _That God hath
visited his people."_
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day,
and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and
thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up
out of his holy habitation.
Linda Lee
2012-06-13 18:32:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
On Jun 12, 1:02 pm, Michael Christ
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of
them
didn't heed it.
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
If the Israelites weren't impressed even by the parting of the Red
Sea, or the death of all the firstborns in Egypt, so that they soon
wanted 'another god', what would it have taken for the Messiah to
impress them in the first century? Pulling the moon down to the Earth?
You won't understand it sitting at your computer
in an air-conditioned room with a hot sandwich
and cool drink at your side.
Apparently, under the circumstances,
the Israelites weren't as bad as you think.
Jeremiah 31:2 -
Thus says the Lord,
"The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness--
Israel, when it went to find its rest."
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
The NT says that many more than followed Christ did believe, but for
fear of the priests, hid their belief.
Fence sitters, and not enough to influence events.
But compare to Moses.
In Egypt at least, at first the Israelites
suffered because of Moses' intervention
and had plenty of reason to "hide their belief".
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.

Isa 62:1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for
Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go
forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that
burneth.
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings
thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of
the LORD shall name.
Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD,
and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy
land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah,
and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land
shall be married.
Isa 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons
marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall
thy God rejoice over thee.
Isa 62:6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall
never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the
LORD, keep not silence,
Isa 62:7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make
Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
Isa 62:8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his
strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine
enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for
the which thou hast laboured:
Isa 62:9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the
LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the
courts of my holiness.
Isa 62:10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the
people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a
standard for the people.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world,
Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold,
his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of
the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's. The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Joh 7:11  Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is
he?
Joh 7:12  And there was much murmuring among the people concerning
him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he
deceiveth the people.
Joh 7:13  Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
Joh 19:38  And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of
Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he
might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came
therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 20:19  Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you.
Post by Zev
That's why the Torah was accepted and is known to you today,
despite the backsliding.
Why?  Since the Israelites saw all these miracles in Egypt and in the
desert, why did they soon dare to rebel against God and begin
worshipping the golden calf? The Scriptures say it is because they're
a rebellious unbelieving people. It seems to me that we wouldn't know
of the law of Moses today if God hadn't begun openly killing those who
spoke against him, as He did when he sent poisonous serpents among
them in Num. 21:5-9 (see above).
Post by Zev
Stories of healing in remote towns and parental virginity aren't
enough.
My question stands.
Luk 7:13  And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and
said unto her, Weep not.
Luk 7:14  And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him
stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15  And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he
delivered him to his mother.
Luk 7:16  And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath
visited his people.
Was Luke there, did he see this?
And remember, Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
It didn't entitle him to make dramatic changes in the Torah.
2 Kings 4:32-35
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
You can say he didn't do many miracles, but the NT says he did, even
in Jerusalem.
I can also say that God succeeded with Moses and failed with Jesus.
You can say anything you want, but what you just said is false on many
levels.
Look at the facts.
Moses didn't have to turn to the Gentiles to find followers,
who would eventually turn against the sources of
their new beliefs.
Look at the Scriptures; God always said he'd go to the nations/
Gentiles when the Messiah came. What you see as proof of failure is
fulfillment of prophesy.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,
and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit
of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the
spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the
LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither
reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove
with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth
with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he
slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and
faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard
shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the
fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall
lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and
the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for
the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters
cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall
stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and
his rest shall be glorious.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
John 2:23  Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast
day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he
did.
John 6:2  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his
miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
John 7:31  And many of the people believed on him, and said, When
Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath
done?
John 9:16  Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of
God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a
man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among
them.
John 11:47  Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a
council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
John 12:37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet
The prophesies that God/YHWH would be revealed to other nations and
joined to God occurred following the death and resurrection of the
Messiah; even fulfillment of that type of prophesy does not impress
upon you because you deny that Christ was God incarnate. and don't
understand how they were fulfilled. But some, the Israelite apostles
and early disciples DID understand.
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
Post by Zev
God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?
It wasn't only David who was wicked, even before he was ever born;
everyone is (except Christ):
Psa. 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
All are held accountable for their original sin, even if they were
able to be perfect during their lifetime.

Only God himself was able to be born into and live a perfect life as
the Son of God; therefore only the Son of God was without blemish and
an acceptable sacrifice.
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.

Rev. 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of __the Lamb slain from the
foundation of the world."__
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It seems you really didn't have much to say.
Luke 7:16  "And there came a
fear on all: and they glorified God,
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, _That God hath
visited his people."_
Zec 2:10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day,
and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and
thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12  And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13  Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up
out of his holy habitation.
Linda Lee
2012-06-13 18:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
On Jun 12, 1:02 pm, Michael Christ
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of
them
didn't heed it.
Jesus never came close to the miracles which enabled
the Exodus and survival in the desert.
If the Israelites weren't impressed even by the parting of the Red
Sea, or the death of all the firstborns in Egypt, so that they soon
wanted 'another god', what would it have taken for the Messiah to
impress them in the first century? Pulling the moon down to the Earth?
You won't understand it sitting at your computer
in an air-conditioned room with a hot sandwich
and cool drink at your side.
Apparently, under the circumstances,
the Israelites weren't as bad as you think.
Jeremiah 31:2 -
Thus says the Lord,
"The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness--
Israel, when it went to find its rest."
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
The NT says that many more than followed Christ did believe, but for
fear of the priests, hid their belief.
Fence sitters, and not enough to influence events.
But compare to Moses.
In Egypt at least, at first the Israelites
suffered because of Moses' intervention
and had plenty of reason to "hide their belief".
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.
Isa 62:1  For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for
Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go
forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that
burneth.
Isa 62:2  And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings
thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of
the LORD shall name.
Isa 62:3  Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD,
and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Isa 62:4  Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy
land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah,
and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land
shall be married.
Isa 62:5  For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons
marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall
thy God rejoice over thee.
Isa 62:6  I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall
never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the
LORD, keep not silence,
Isa 62:7  And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make
Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
Isa 62:8  The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his
strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine
enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for
Isa 62:9  But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the
LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the
courts of my holiness.
Isa 62:10  Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the
people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a
standard for the people.
Isa 62:11  Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world,
Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold,
his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Isa 62:12  And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of
the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's.  The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Joh 7:11  Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is
he?
Joh 7:12  And there was much murmuring among the people concerning
him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he
deceiveth the people.
Joh 7:13  Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
Joh 19:38  And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of
Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he
might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came
therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 20:19  Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the
week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
them, Peace be unto you.
Post by Zev
That's why the Torah was accepted and is known to you today,
despite the backsliding.
Why?  Since the Israelites saw all these miracles in Egypt and in the
desert, why did they soon dare to rebel against God and begin
worshipping the golden calf? The Scriptures say it is because they're
a rebellious unbelieving people. It seems to me that we wouldn't know
of the law of Moses today if God hadn't begun openly killing those who
spoke against him, as He did when he sent poisonous serpents among
them in Num. 21:5-9 (see above).
Post by Zev
Stories of healing in remote towns and parental virginity aren't
enough.
My question stands.
Luk 7:13  And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and
said unto her, Weep not.
Luk 7:14  And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him
stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15  And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he
delivered him to his mother.
Luk 7:16  And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God,
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath
visited his people.
Was Luke there, did he see this?
And remember, Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
It didn't entitle him to make dramatic changes in the Torah.
2 Kings 4:32-35
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement. If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
You can say he didn't do many miracles, but the NT says he did, even
in Jerusalem.
I can also say that God succeeded with Moses and failed with Jesus.
You can say anything you want, but what you just said is false on many
levels.
Look at the facts.
Moses didn't have to turn to the Gentiles to find followers,
who would eventually turn against the sources of
their new beliefs.
Look at the Scriptures; God always said he'd go to the nations/
Gentiles when the Messiah came. What you see as proof of failure is
fulfillment of prophesy.
Isa 11:1  And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,
Isa 11:2  And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit
of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the
spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3  And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the
LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither
Isa 11:4  But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove
with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth
with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he
slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5  And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and
faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard
shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the
fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7  And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall
lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8  And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and
the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for
the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters
cover the sea.
Isa 11:10  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall
stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and
his rest shall be glorious.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
John 2:23  Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast
day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he
did.
John 6:2  And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his
miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
John 7:31  And many of the people believed on him, and said, When
Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath
done?
John 9:16  Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of
God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a
man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among
them.
John 11:47  Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a
council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
John 12:37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet
The prophesies that God/YHWH would be revealed to other nations and
joined to God occurred following the death and resurrection of the
Messiah; even fulfillment of that type of prophesy does not impress
upon you because you deny that Christ was God incarnate. and don't
understand how they were fulfilled. But some, the Israelite apostles
and early disciples DID understand.
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
Post by Zev
God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?
It wasn't only David who was wicked, even before he was ever born;
Psa. 51:5  "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
All are held accountable for their original sin, even if they were
able to be perfect during their lifetime.
Only God himself was able to be born into and live a perfect life as
the Son of God; therefore only the Son of God was without blemish and
an acceptable sacrifice.
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
Rev. 13:8  "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of __the Lamb slain from the
foundation of the world."__
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It seems you really didn't have much to say.
Luke 7:16  "And there came a
fear on all: and they glorified God,
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, _That God hath
visited his people."_
Zec 2:10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day,
and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and
thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec 2:12  And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy
land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13  Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up
out of his holy habitation.
Zev
2012-06-14 06:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.
Read the book of Joshua.
It happened time and again.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's. The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement. If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
You can guess my next question, depending on your reply,
and you can save time by answering it here.
Post by Linda Lee
Look at the Scriptures; God always said he'd go to the nations/
Gentiles when the Messiah came. What you see as proof of failure is
fulfillment of prophesy.
When the prophesy of Isaiah 11 happens,
we'll look at the circumstances.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
And 1 + 0 + 0 = 1.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?
It wasn't only David who was wicked, even before he was ever born;
Psa. 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
All are held accountable for their original sin, even if they were
able to be perfect during their lifetime.
Only God himself was able to be born into and live a perfect life as
the Son of God; therefore only the Son of God was without blemish and
an acceptable sacrifice.
God was born and lived as the son of God.
You understand this???
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
Michael Christ
2012-06-14 07:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.
Read the book of Joshua.
It happened time and again.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's.  The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
You can guess my next question, depending on your reply,
and you can save time by answering it here.
Post by Linda Lee
Look at the Scriptures; God always said he'd go to the nations/
Gentiles when the Messiah came. What you see as proof of failure is
fulfillment of prophesy.
When the prophesy of Isaiah 11 happens,
we'll look at the circumstances.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
And 1 + 0 + 0 = 1.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?
It wasn't only David who was wicked, even before he was ever born;
Psa. 51:5  "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
All are held accountable for their original sin, even if they were
able to be perfect during their lifetime.
Only God himself was able to be born into and live a perfect life as
the Son of God; therefore only the Son of God was without blemish and
an acceptable sacrifice.
God was born and lived as the son of God.
You understand this???
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
What is the point of wisdom then?



Michael Christ
Zev
2012-06-14 08:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
What is the point of wisdom then?
If ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise?
Michael Christ
2012-06-14 10:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
What is the point of wisdom then?
If ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise?
Ignorance is never bliss. Zev, there is already enough people trying
to wise.

Back to the context/truth, everything is about salvation. That means
Proverbs 8 also.



Michael Christ
Zev
2012-06-14 14:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
What is the point of wisdom then?
If ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise?
Ignorance is never bliss.  Zev, there is already enough people trying
to wise.
Back to the context/truth, everything is about salvation.  That means
Proverbs 8 also.
There's nothing here that explains how a son and his parent
both exist in every instant of time.
Linda has explained nothing by with these verses.
Linda Lee
2012-06-14 10:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness. In fact, when the
Israelites murmured against God, he sent poisonous serpents among them
to kill them, and then had Moses lift up a brass serpent on a pole,
and taught them that anyone who looked upon that would live; this was
teaching of Christ being lifted up in crucifixion, and anyone who
looked to him would live eternally. I suppose you think this episode
with the serpents was just an odd occurrence someone saw fit to throw
into the Hebrew Scriptures for no apparent reason.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.
Read the book of Joshua.
It happened time and again.
Up and down; up and down. They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's.  The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Not in the form f 613 commandments IF they accept Christ. The apostle
Peter said the Israelite believers were saved in the same way as the
Gentile believers, through the grace of the Lord Yahashua`/Jesus (Acts
15:11).

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the
brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of
Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and
certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and
elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed
through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles:
and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of
the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all
things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed [in Christ], saying, That it was needful to circumcise them
[Gentile believers], and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of
this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and
said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago
God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear
the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their
hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck
of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS
CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY.
Post by Zev
You can guess my next question, depending on your reply,
and you can save time by answering it here.
No, I cannot guess your next question.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Look at the Scriptures; God always said he'd go to the nations/
Gentiles when the Messiah came. What you see as proof of failure is
fulfillment of prophesy.
When the prophesy of Isaiah 11 happens,
we'll look at the circumstances.
You expect it all to happen at one time; that is the failing. It
doesn't all happen in a split-second. It is a long-term reality;
Christ comes to draw all to him, and then judges at a later time.
There has to be time for the people to turn to him, doesn't there? It
will be a little late for you to decide when this prophesy is
completely fulfilled and Judgment has come.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
And 1 + 0 + 0 = 1.
The Holy Spirit and Christ are not zeros.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?
It wasn't only David who was wicked, even before he was ever born;
Psa. 51:5  "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
All are held accountable for their original sin, even if they were
able to be perfect during their lifetime.
Only God himself was able to be born into and live a perfect life as
the Son of God; therefore only the Son of God was without blemish and
an acceptable sacrifice.
God was born and lived as the son of God.
You understand this???
Yes, I do.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
Right, Wisdom calls to everyone; everyone needs salvation through
Christ.
Post by Zev
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
Knowledge of salvation through Christ IS Wisdom.
Zev
2012-06-14 14:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
Post by Linda Lee
In fact, when the
Israelites murmured against God, he sent poisonous serpents among them
to kill them, and then had Moses lift up a brass serpent on a pole,
and taught them that anyone who looked upon that would live; this was
teaching of Christ being  lifted up in crucifixion, and anyone who
looked to him would live eternally.  I suppose you think this episode
with the serpents was just an odd occurrence someone saw fit to throw
into the Hebrew Scriptures for no apparent reason.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.
Read the book of Joshua.
It happened time and again.
Up and down; up and down.  They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's.  The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Not in the form f 613 commandments IF they accept Christ.
Bingo!
Dramatic change.
QED
Post by Linda Lee
The apostle
Peter said the Israelite believers were saved in the same way as the
Gentile believers, through the grace of the Lord Yahashua`/Jesus (Acts
15:11).
Act 15:1  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the
brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of
Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2  When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and
certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and
elders about this question.
Act 15:3  And being brought on their way by the church, they passed
and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of
the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all
things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed [in Christ], saying, That it was needful to circumcise them
[Gentile believers], and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of
this matter.
Act 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and
said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago
God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear
the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their
hearts by faith.
Act 15:10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck
of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11  But we believe that THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS
CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY.
Post by Zev
You can guess my next question, depending on your reply,
and you can save time by answering it here.
No, I cannot guess your next question.
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Look at the Scriptures; God always said he'd go to the nations/
Gentiles when the Messiah came. What you see as proof of failure is
fulfillment of prophesy.
When the prophesy of Isaiah 11 happens,
we'll look at the circumstances.
You expect it all to happen at one time; that is the failing. It
doesn't all happen in a split-second.  It is a long-term reality;
Christ comes to draw all to him, and then judges at a later time.
There has to be time for the people to turn to him, doesn't there?  It
will be a little late for you to decide when this prophesy is
completely fulfilled and Judgment has come.
If I abandon God's law,
at that time it will be too late to repent.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
And 1 + 0 + 0 = 1.
The Holy Spirit and Christ are not zeros.
I'm counting Gods.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?
It wasn't only David who was wicked, even before he was ever born;
Psa. 51:5  "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
All are held accountable for their original sin, even if they were
able to be perfect during their lifetime.
Only God himself was able to be born into and live a perfect life as
the Son of God; therefore only the Son of God was without blemish and
an acceptable sacrifice.
God was born and lived as the son of God.
You understand this???
Yes, I do.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
Right, Wisdom calls to everyone; everyone needs salvation through
Christ.
Post by Zev
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
Knowledge of salvation through Christ IS Wisdom.
Terry Cross
2012-06-14 15:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
"Find grace" means much more than what you say. A state of grace is
not the same as having a nice day.
Post by Zev
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
Cite examples.
Post by Zev
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
Exegesis is all about cherry-picking passages, verses, and individual
characters from Scripture. Judaism depends of exegesis to keep it
from the flaming pit of Mosaicism.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
In fact, when the
Israelites murmured against God, he sent poisonous serpents among them
to kill them, and then had Moses lift up a brass serpent on a pole,
and taught them that anyone who looked upon that would live; this was
teaching of Christ being  lifted up in crucifixion, and anyone who
looked to him would live eternally.  I suppose you think this episode
with the serpents was just an odd occurrence someone saw fit to throw
into the Hebrew Scriptures for no apparent reason.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.
Read the book of Joshua.
It happened time and again.
Up and down; up and down.  They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's.  The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
That is a Pharisaic argument, and they were very clever to discover
ways of doing things in ways they were never told not to. For
example, they discovered a range of ways a person could murder her
neighbor without running afoul of the murder statute.

Jews live by the Law as though they had a clever lawyer. Christians
are bound by a higher principle.

TCross
Zev
2012-06-14 16:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
"Find grace" means much more than what you say.  A state of grace is
not the same as having a nice day.
Right!
Post by Zev
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
Cite examples.
If you know of a grammar-free search tool,
(looks for every verse which contains
a form of "to find" followed by a form of "grace")
I'll use it and give you and Linda all the help you need.
Post by Zev
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
Exegesis is all about cherry-picking passages, verses, and individual
characters from Scripture.  Judaism depends of exegesis to keep it
from the flaming pit of Mosaicism.
I don't think an argument like this helps Linda very much.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
That is a Pharisaic argument, and they were very clever to discover
ways of doing things in ways they were never told not to.  For
example, they discovered a range of ways a person could murder her
neighbor without running afoul of the murder statute.
Jews live by the Law as though they had a clever lawyer.  Christians
are bound by a higher principle.
Isn't it silly to read a law book and complain
that it sounds like a ..... law book?

Isn't it silly to say that Jews live for low principles?

Isn't it silly to sound like a cheap anti-Semite
if you're really not?
Terry Cross
2012-06-14 18:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
"Find grace" means much more than what you say.  A state of grace is
not the same as having a nice day.
Right!
Post by Zev
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
Cite examples.
If you know of a grammar-free search tool,
(looks for every verse which contains
a form of "to find" followed by a form of "grace")
I'll use it and give you and Linda all the help you need.
Post by Zev
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
Exegesis is all about cherry-picking passages, verses, and individual
characters from Scripture.  Judaism depends of exegesis to keep it
from the flaming pit of Mosaicism.
I don't think an argument like this helps Linda very much.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
That is a Pharisaic argument, and they were very clever to discover
ways of doing things in ways they were never told not to.  For
example, they discovered a range of ways a person could murder her
neighbor without running afoul of the murder statute.
Jews live by the Law as though they had a clever lawyer.  Christians
are bound by a higher principle.
Isn't it silly to read a law book and complain
that it sounds like a ..... law book?
Not all traditions of law include clever evasions of the law. Modern
America has adopted the Jewish tradition of splitting hairs until the
libraries multiply with volumes, shelves, rows, and galleries of laws
upon laws and interpretation of laws. This is not the natural
precedent or consequence of a moral life.
Post by Zev
Isn't it silly to say that Jews live for low principles?
It might be silly, but I did not write that. You yourself state that
Jews live by laws and you defend devious evasion of those laws. In
contrast, Jesus taught us to live by principles. My purpose in any
statement on the subject is to contrast Jesus' teachings with what you
say they are. But neither Christians nor Jews live perfect lives,
even by their own reckoning.
Post by Zev
Isn't it silly to sound like a cheap anti-Semite
if you're really not?
If I had really written the thing you say I did, it might be worth
discussing. Otherwise, not.

TCross
Linda Lee
2012-06-15 04:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT? People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
In fact, when the
Israelites murmured against God, he sent poisonous serpents among them
to kill them, and then had Moses lift up a brass serpent on a pole,
and taught them that anyone who looked upon that would live; this was
teaching of Christ being  lifted up in crucifixion, and anyone who
looked to him would live eternally.  I suppose you think this episode
with the serpents was just an odd occurrence someone saw fit to throw
into the Hebrew Scriptures for no apparent reason.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
They didn't hide it; they didn't have it to hide.
And in the end, they followed his instructions,
left Egypt with him, accepted the Torah and commandments,
and have kept it ever since, despite centuries of persecution.
Of course there are ups and downs, but they always return.
hat you call "us and downs", God in the Scriptures calls disobedience.
Israel never achieved righteousness under the law; they didn't achieve
righteousness until the Messiah and salvation came, and the remnant of
Israel that would be saved received their new name - Christian.
Read the book of Joshua.
It happened time and again.
Up and down; up and down.  They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
I know; that is where I read it; the point is, IF Israel had always
always always obeyed the law, they would have been righteous, but they
could not and cannot. Those who hear the law are not justified; those
who do the law are, but no one does it, and you give yourself a pass,
thinking you do it well enough, when it is only well enough for you;
not well enough to find favor with God.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
The people complained and Moses himself didn't like it.
But God's plan overtook all of them
and nothing Pharaoh could do could help him.
Huh? God worked even though only Moses believed in him; so what's your
point?
The contrast between Moses' success and Jesus' failure.
It is your failure; not the Messiah's.  The Messiah was the prophet
like unto Moses of whom Moses prophesied; Moses bringing in the old
covenant; Yahashua` the Messiah bringing in the new covenant.
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
As I said before, we're all born in iniquity, as King David indicated
he was himself, and are all therefore guilty of sin from even before
the day we were born.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Not in the form f 613 commandments IF they accept Christ.
Bingo!
Dramatic change.
QED
My answer centered on your word "must", as if they'd be damned if they
didn't do it. The problem is that obedience to the law of Moses has
never saved anyone. All it can do is curse you to damnation when you
fail to obey ALL of it ALL of your life.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
The apostle
Peter said the Israelite believers were saved in the same way as the
Gentile believers, through the grace of the Lord Yahashua`/Jesus (Acts
15:11).
Act 15:1  And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the
brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of
Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2  When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and
certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and
elders about this question.
Act 15:3  And being brought on their way by the church, they passed
and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4  And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of
the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all
things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed [in Christ], saying, That it was needful to circumcise them
[Gentile believers], and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6  And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of
this matter.
Act 15:7  And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and
said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago
God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear
the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their
hearts by faith.
Act 15:10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck
of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11  But we believe that THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS
CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY.
Post by Zev
You can guess my next question, depending on your reply,
and you can save time by answering it here.
No, I cannot guess your next question.
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Because already believers have 'the law written on their heart',
salvation has already come. All the prophesies have not been acted out
yet.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Look at the Scriptures; God always said he'd go to the nations/
Gentiles when the Messiah came. What you see as proof of failure is
fulfillment of prophesy.
When the prophesy of Isaiah 11 happens,
we'll look at the circumstances.
You expect it all to happen at one time; that is the failing. It
doesn't all happen in a split-second.  It is a long-term reality;
Christ comes to draw all to him, and then judges at a later time.
There has to be time for the people to turn to him, doesn't there?  It
will be a little late for you to decide when this prophesy is
completely fulfilled and Judgment has come.
If I abandon God's law,
at that time it will be too late to repent.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting
son
of God etc..
That's a ludicrous statement; I understand the concepts. and so do
many people.
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
And 1 + 0 + 0 = 1.
The Holy Spirit and Christ are not zeros.
I'm counting Gods.
You can't count; you must multiply. 1 X 1 X 1 = 1
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son, God, and had him killed so he wouldn't
have to punish you for disobeying commandments
you were never obligated to keep?
It wasn't only David who was wicked, even before he was ever born;
Psa. 51:5  "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
All are held accountable for their original sin, even if they were
able to be perfect during their lifetime.
Only God himself was able to be born into and live a perfect life as
the Son of God; therefore only the Son of God was without blemish and
an acceptable sacrifice.
God was born and lived as the son of God.
You understand this???
Yes, I do.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
God had a son but they both always existed?
In Proverbs 8, Wisdom is salvation through the Messiah; that is what/
who calls to men. The intention of God to incarnate as our Saviour (as
The Son of Man, and therefore called the Son of God) always existed
since before the foundation of the world; the works of the Son remain
forever; therefore the Son always existed and does exist.
"Sons of man" = "sons of Adam" = everyone.
Right, Wisdom calls to everyone; everyone needs salvation through
Christ.
Post by Zev
The chapter is about wisdom, not salvation.
Knowledge of salvation through Christ IS Wisdom.
Zev
2012-06-15 08:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were
disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT? People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.

Translation: New American Standard Bible

Genesis 30:27
But Laban said to him, "If now it *pleases you*, stay with me;
I have divined that the LORD has blessed me on your account."

Genesis 32:5
I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants;
and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may *find favor* in your
sight.

Proverbs 3:4
So you will *find favor* and good repute
In the sight of God and man.

Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will afterward *find more favor*
Than he who flatters with the tongue.
end quotes
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Up and down; up and down. They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
I know; that is where I read it; the point is, IF Israel had always
always always obeyed the law, they would have been righteous, but they
could not and cannot. Those who hear the law are not justified; those
who do the law are, but no one does it, and you give yourself a pass,
thinking you do it well enough, when it is only well enough for you;
not well enough to find favor with God.
A Christian invention.
Our mission is to strive, always.
"Enough" is not a meaningful concept here.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
As I said before, we're all born in iniquity, as King David indicated
he was himself, and are all therefore guilty of sin from even before
the day we were born.
Psalm 51 doesn't say that King David was a sinner before he was born
or that he needed atonement for sins he committed before his birth.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he
said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement. If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Not in the form f 613 commandments IF they accept Christ.
Bingo!
Dramatic change.
QED
My answer centered on your word "must", as if they'd be damned if they
didn't do it. The problem is that obedience to the law of Moses has
never saved anyone. All it can do is curse you to damnation when you
fail to obey ALL of it ALL of your life.
Moses forced the Israelites to accept a Torah
which could only curse them?
That's wrong and it's not what the Bible itself says.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Because already believers have 'the law written on their heart',
salvation has already come.
Forced conversions are not binding, but they happened,
and during the inquisition, "backsliders" were burnt at the stake.
Don't bother telling me what's "written on their heart".
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
And 1 + 0 + 0 = 1.
The Holy Spirit and Christ are not zeros.
I'm counting Gods.
You can't count; you must multiply. 1 X 1 X 1 = 1
If A and B and C are Gods, that's three.
What do you think Trinity means?
Linda, this is pre-kindergarten stuff.
Linda Lee
2012-06-15 12:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It isn't me, but God in the Scriptures who says they were
disbelieving
and disobedient.
And God also says they found grace in the wilderness.
The remnant found grace when the Messiah came.
I wonder what Titus would have said,
hearing a remark like this.
Whether they physically lived or died, there is grace to live
eternally in Christ.
Post by Zev
And it's irrelevant, even if it were true.
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT?  People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.

You think because the latter parts of the prophesies of him have not
been fulfilled yet, no part of them have been fulfilled. But what you
think must happen all at one time does not give a timeframe.


The Messiah got this prophesy right; Israel suffered for hundreds of
years, beginning with that generation that knew of him when he lived,
because they had not recognized the time of their visitation from God
when the Messiah came.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept
over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this
thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid
from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall
cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on
every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children
within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them
that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of
prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Post by Zev
Translation: New American Standard Bible
Genesis 30:27
But Laban said to him, "If now it *pleases you*, stay with me;
I have divined that the LORD has blessed me on your account."
Genesis 32:5
I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants;
and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may *find favor* in your
sight.
Proverbs 3:4
So you will *find favor* and good repute
In the sight of God and man.
Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will afterward *find more favor*
Than he who flatters with the tongue.
end quotes
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Up and down; up and down.  They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
I know; that is where I read it; the point is, IF Israel had always
always always obeyed the law, they would have been righteous, but they
could not and cannot. Those who hear the law are not justified; those
who do the law are, but no one does it, and you give yourself a pass,
thinking you do it well enough, when it is only well enough for you;
not well enough to find favor with God.
A Christian invention.
Our mission is to strive, always.
"Enough" is not a meaningful concept here.
Whatever you've decided your "mission" may be, that is not what the
Scriptures SAY.

Deut. 6:25 "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do
ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded
us."
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
As I said before, we're all born in iniquity, as King David indicated
he was himself, and are all therefore guilty of sin from even before
the day we were born.
Psalm 51 doesn't say that King David was a sinner before he was born
or that he needed atonement for sins he committed before his birth.
Yes it does. You don't see what you don't want to see; there is no
other explanation for it.

Psa. 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he
said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Not in the form f 613 commandments IF they accept Christ.
Bingo!
Dramatic change.
QED
My answer centered on your word "must", as if they'd be damned if they
didn't do it. The problem is that obedience to the law of Moses has
never saved anyone. All it can do is curse you to damnation when you
fail to obey ALL of it ALL of your life.
Moses forced the Israelites to accept a Torah
which could only curse them?
That's wrong and it's not what the Bible itself says.
It would have blessed them if they had kept it. But they didn't keep
it. And even then, their sins would have been forgiven if they'd
turned to the Messiah when he came. So there was always a way out of
being cursed by failure to obey the law.
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Because already believers have 'the law written on their heart',
salvation has already come.
Forced conversions are not binding, but they happened,
and during the inquisition, "backsliders" were burnt at the stake.
Don't bother telling me what's "written on their heart".
There are some evil people in all religions, Christianity and Judaism
alike. Are you accountable for the sins of your fathers, such as
having the Messiah put to death? Don't try to blame that on me; I
certainly would not force a conversion, nor have I ever been violent
or would be violent. It is your own problem if you never convert, not
mine. I have no interest in converting you and in my last post I
indicated I wasn't even interesting in CONVERSING with you on this
subject anymore. And that is because you seem to be getting rather
hostile and insulting, like you are right now.
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
3 = 1?
1 X 1 X 1 = 1, is it not?
And 1 + 0 + 0 = 1.
The Holy Spirit and Christ are not zeros.
I'm counting Gods.
You can't count; you must multiply.  1 X 1 X 1 = 1
If A and B and C are Gods, that's three.
What do you think Trinity means?
Apparently, you don't know what it means.
Post by Zev
Linda, this is pre-kindergarten stuff.
Goodbye; I've had enough crap.
Zev
2012-06-15 15:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT? People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
Post by Linda Lee
You think because the latter parts of the prophesies of him have not
been fulfilled yet, no part of them have been fulfilled. But what you
think must happen all at one time does not give a timeframe.
The Messiah got this prophesy right; Israel suffered for hundreds of
years, beginning with that generation that knew of him when he lived,
because they had not recognized the time of their visitation from God
when the Messiah came.
Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept
over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this
thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid
from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall
cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on
every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children
within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them
that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of
prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Post by Zev
Translation: New American Standard Bible
Genesis 30:27
But Laban said to him, "If now it *pleases you*, stay with me;
I have divined that the LORD has blessed me on your account."
Genesis 32:5
I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants;
and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may *find favor* in your
sight.
Proverbs 3:4
So you will *find favor* and good repute
In the sight of God and man.
Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will afterward *find more favor*
Than he who flatters with the tongue.
end quotes
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Up and down; up and down. They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
I know; that is where I read it; the point is, IF Israel had always
always always obeyed the law, they would have been righteous, but they
could not and cannot. Those who hear the law are not justified; those
who do the law are, but no one does it, and you give yourself a pass,
thinking you do it well enough, when it is only well enough for you;
not well enough to find favor with God.
A Christian invention.
Our mission is to strive, always.
"Enough" is not a meaningful concept here.
Whatever you've decided your "mission" may be, that is not what the
Scriptures SAY.
Deut. 6:25 "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do
ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded
us."
Exactly.
That is the goal we are to strive for.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
As I said before, we're all born in iniquity, as King David indicated
he was himself, and are all therefore guilty of sin from even before
the day we were born.
Psalm 51 doesn't say that King David was a sinner before he was born
or that he needed atonement for sins he committed before his birth.
Yes it does. You don't see what you don't want to see; there is no
other explanation for it.
Psa. 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
Exactly.
Thanks.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
My answer centered on your word "must", as if they'd be damned if they
didn't do it. The problem is that obedience to the law of Moses has
never saved anyone. All it can do is curse you to damnation when you
fail to obey ALL of it ALL of your life.
Moses forced the Israelites to accept a Torah
which could only curse them?
That's wrong and it's not what the Bible itself says.
It would have blessed them if they had kept it. But they didn't keep
it. And even then, their sins would have been forgiven if they'd
turned to the Messiah when he came. So there was always a way out of
being cursed by failure to obey the law.
You just said that obedience to the law of Moses
has never saved anyone.
Why would Moses force the Israelites to accept a Torah
which would only curse them?
(before the time of Jesus, if you insist)
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Because already believers have 'the law written on their heart',
salvation has already come.
Forced conversions are not binding, but they happened,
and during the inquisition, "backsliders" were burnt at the stake.
Don't bother telling me what's "written on their heart".
There are some evil people in all religions, Christianity and Judaism
alike. Are you accountable for the sins of your fathers, such as
having the Messiah put to death? Don't try to blame that on me; I
certainly would not force a conversion, nor have I ever been violent
or would be violent. It is your own problem if you never convert, not
mine. I have no interest in converting you and in my last post I
indicated I wasn't even interesting in CONVERSING with you on this
subject anymore. And that is because you seem to be getting rather
hostile and insulting, like you are right now.
I'm not blaming anyone, certainly not you.
I'm just questioning the "written on their heart" business.
It doesn't seem to work.
Linda Lee
2012-06-15 17:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT?  People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
God didn't destroy them for disobedience, so they found grace for
their sins and rebelliousness against Him.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
You think because the latter parts of the prophesies of him have not
been fulfilled yet, no part of them have been fulfilled. But what you
think must happen all at one time does not give a timeframe.
The Messiah got this prophesy right; Israel suffered for hundreds of
years, beginning with that generation that knew of him when he lived,
because they had not recognized the time of their visitation from God
when the Messiah came.
Luk 19:41  And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept
over it,
Luk 19:42  Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this
thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid
from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall
cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on
every side,
Luk 19:44  And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children
within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 19:45  And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them
that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46  Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of
prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Post by Zev
Translation: New American Standard Bible
Genesis 30:27
But Laban said to him, "If now it *pleases you*, stay with me;
I have divined that the LORD has blessed me on your account."
Genesis 32:5
I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants;
and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may *find favor* in your
sight.
Proverbs 3:4
So you will *find favor* and good repute
In the sight of God and man.
Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will afterward *find more favor*
Than he who flatters with the tongue.
end quotes
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Up and down; up and down.  They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
I know; that is where I read it; the point is, IF Israel had always
always always obeyed the law, they would have been righteous, but they
could not and cannot. Those who hear the law are not justified; those
who do the law are, but no one does it, and you give yourself a pass,
thinking you do it well enough, when it is only well enough for you;
not well enough to find favor with God.
A Christian invention.
Our mission is to strive, always.
"Enough" is not a meaningful concept here.
Whatever you've decided your "mission" may be, that is not what the
Scriptures SAY.
Deut. 6:25  "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do
ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded
us."
Exactly.
That is the goal we are to strive for.
Christians under the new covenant are also to strive for the goal of
pleasing God, but still fall short, some more than others. So if you
can fall short under the old covenant, why do you think others can't
fall short under the new covenant, and if and when they do fall short
of perfection, that means "it doesn't WORK" (as you've said of the
'law written on the heart' of believers)?
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
As I said before, we're all born in iniquity, as King David indicated
he was himself, and are all therefore guilty of sin from even before
the day we were born.
Psalm 51 doesn't say that King David was a sinner before he was born
or that he needed atonement for sins he committed before his birth.
Yes it does.  You don't see what you don't want to see; there is no
other explanation for it.
Psa. 51:5  "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
Exactly.
Thanks.
I'm confused by your response. How could he have been shaped in
iniquity and conceived in sin if he were innocent when he was
conceived and his body was formed.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
My answer centered on your word "must", as if they'd be damned if they
didn't do it. The problem is that obedience to the law of Moses has
never saved anyone. All it can do is curse you to damnation when you
fail to obey ALL of it ALL of your life.
Moses forced the Israelites to accept a Torah
which could only curse them?
That's wrong and it's not what the Bible itself says.
It would have blessed them if they had kept it. But they didn't keep
it. And even then, their sins would have been forgiven if they'd
turned to the Messiah when he came. So there was always a way out of
being cursed by failure to obey the law.
You just said that obedience to the law of Moses
has never saved anyone.
Why would Moses force the Israelites to accept a Torah
which would only curse them?
(before the time of Jesus, if you insist)
The Hebrew Scriptures say it was because the Israelites were
rebellious and stiff-necked that the Israelites almost always failed
to obey all of the statutes. They should have had a stronger belief
and obedience given what they were blessed to see in the way of
miracles.


Paul says the reason Israel was blinded to belief in the Messiah is so
everyone would be guilty before God, and it would then be just for God
to forgive the Gentiles (who had rejected YHWH), as well as the
Israelites. I'll have to research that a bit to see if he backs that
up with the Hebrew Scriptures as he does much of what he says (but not
all).
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Because already believers have 'the law written on their heart',
salvation has already come.
Forced conversions are not binding, but they happened,
and during the inquisition, "backsliders" were burnt at the stake.
Don't bother telling me what's "written on their heart".
There are some evil people in all religions, Christianity and Judaism
alike.  Are you accountable for the sins of your fathers, such as
having the Messiah put to death?  Don't try to blame that on me; I
certainly would not force a conversion, nor have I ever been violent
or would be violent. It is your own problem if you never convert, not
mine. I have no interest in converting you and in my last post I
indicated I wasn't even interesting in CONVERSING with you on this
subject anymore. And that is because you seem to be getting rather
hostile and insulting, like you are right now.
I'm not blaming anyone, certainly not you.
I'm just questioning the "written on their heart" business.
It doesn't seem to work.
I think it is more about conscience than apparent perfection.
Zev
2012-06-16 20:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT? People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
God didn't destroy them for disobedience, so they found grace for
their sins and rebelliousness against Him.
Looking at the chapter (Jeremiah 31)
this doesn't look out of place.
It's a plausible way of understanding the verse,
but that's not what the Hebrew phrase means.
That's why I think the verse is speaking of praise
for the Israelites' willingness to follow
Moses into the desert.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
You think because the latter parts of the prophesies of him have not
been fulfilled yet, no part of them have been fulfilled. But what you
think must happen all at one time does not give a timeframe.
The Messiah got this prophesy right; Israel suffered for hundreds of
years, beginning with that generation that knew of him when he lived,
because they had not recognized the time of their visitation from God
when the Messiah came.
Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept
over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this
thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid
from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall
cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on
every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children
within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them
that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of
prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Post by Zev
Translation: New American Standard Bible
Genesis 30:27
But Laban said to him, "If now it *pleases you*, stay with me;
I have divined that the LORD has blessed me on your account."
Genesis 32:5
I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants;
and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may *find favor* in your
sight.
Proverbs 3:4
So you will *find favor* and good repute
In the sight of God and man.
Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will afterward *find more favor*
Than he who flatters with the tongue.
end quotes
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Up and down; up and down. They were supposed to be consistent, not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
I know; that is where I read it; the point is, IF Israel had always
always always obeyed the law, they would have been righteous, but they
could not and cannot. Those who hear the law are not justified; those
who do the law are, but no one does it, and you give yourself a pass,
thinking you do it well enough, when it is only well enough for you;
not well enough to find favor with God.
A Christian invention.
Our mission is to strive, always.
"Enough" is not a meaningful concept here.
Whatever you've decided your "mission" may be, that is not what the
Scriptures SAY.
Deut. 6:25 "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do
ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded
us."
Exactly.
That is the goal we are to strive for.
Christians under the new covenant are also to strive for the goal of
pleasing God, but still fall short, some more than others. So if you
can fall short under the old covenant, why do you think others can't
fall short under the new covenant, and if and when they do fall short
of perfection, that means "it doesn't WORK" (as you've said of the
'law written on the heart' of believers)?
I understand that Christians understand this as saying
that Christians will know what the right thing to do,
and will do it, because it's "written on their hearts".
I may be wrong, but if it means much less,
it's not much different from the "old" system.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are
not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
As I said before, we're all born in iniquity, as King David indicated
he was himself, and are all therefore guilty of sin from even before
the day we were born.
Psalm 51 doesn't say that King David was a sinner before he was born
or that he needed atonement for sins he committed before his birth.
Yes it does. You don't see what you don't want to see; there is no
other explanation for it.
Psa. 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
Exactly.
Thanks.
I'm confused by your response. How could he have been shaped in
iniquity and conceived in sin if he were innocent when he was
conceived and his body was formed.
Genesis 8:21 -
"...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth...".

This verse, as the verse you quoted, Psalms 51:5,
doesn't say we were sinners before we were born
or that we need atonement for sins committed before birth.
It's a statement of our imperfect humanity.
We are inclined to sin, it's innate.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
My answer centered on your word "must", as if they'd be damned if they
didn't do it. The problem is that obedience to the law of Moses has
never saved anyone. All it can do is curse you to damnation when you
fail to obey ALL of it ALL of your life.
Moses forced the Israelites to accept a Torah
which could only curse them?
That's wrong and it's not what the Bible itself says.
It would have blessed them if they had kept it. But they didn't keep
it. And even then, their sins would have been forgiven if they'd
turned to the Messiah when he came. So there was always a way out of
being cursed by failure to obey the law.
You just said that obedience to the law of Moses
has never saved anyone.
Why would Moses force the Israelites to accept a Torah
which would only curse them?
(before the time of Jesus, if you insist)
The Hebrew Scriptures say it was because the Israelites were
rebellious and stiff-necked that the Israelites almost always failed
to obey all of the statutes. They should have had a stronger belief
and obedience given what they were blessed to see in the way of
miracles.
Most Christians here say that the Israelite failure
was inevitable because they couldn't keep
*every* commandment.
You seem to be saying that they could have, but just didn't,
most of the time.
Post by Linda Lee
Paul says the reason Israel was blinded to belief in the Messiah is so
everyone would be guilty before God, and it would then be just for God
to forgive the Gentiles (who had rejected YHWH), as well as the
Israelites. I'll have to research that a bit to see if he backs that
up with the Hebrew Scriptures as he does much of what he says (but not
all).
Odi et amo.
I love Paul's Pharisaic arguments,
I hate his manipulation of concepts and verses.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Because already believers have 'the law written on their heart',
salvation has already come.
Forced conversions are not binding, but they happened,
and during the inquisition, "backsliders" were burnt at the stake.
Don't bother telling me what's "written on their heart".
There are some evil people in all religions, Christianity and Judaism
alike. Are you accountable for the sins of your fathers, such as
having the Messiah put to death? Don't try to blame that on me; I
certainly would not force a conversion, nor have I ever been violent
or would be violent. It is your own problem if you never convert, not
mine. I have no interest in converting you and in my last post I
indicated I wasn't even interesting in CONVERSING with you on this
subject anymore. And that is because you seem to be getting rather
hostile and insulting, like you are right now.
I'm not blaming anyone, certainly not you.
I'm just questioning the "written on their heart" business.
It doesn't seem to work.
I think it is more about conscience than apparent perfection.
Linda Lee
2012-06-16 22:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT?  People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
God didn't destroy them for disobedience, so they found grace for
their sins and rebelliousness against Him.
Looking at the chapter (Jeremiah 31)
this doesn't look out of place.
It's a plausible way of understanding the verse,
but that's not what the Hebrew phrase means.
That's why I think the verse is speaking of praise
for the Israelites' willingness to follow
Moses into the desert.
They initially had willingness to follow Moses from Egypt to the
desert, but they soon regretted it and blamed Moses for bringing them
there simply to die of thirst and hunger. How is that finding grace
with God? And I notice that it is only those who God didn't order to
be killed for their sins who had found "grace".

Jer 31:2 "Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the
sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause
him to rest."
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
You think because the latter parts of the prophesies of him have not
been fulfilled yet, no part of them have been fulfilled. But what you
think must happen all at one time does not give a timeframe.
The Messiah got this prophesy right; Israel suffered for hundreds of
years, beginning with that generation that knew of him when he lived,
because they had not recognized the time of their visitation from God
when the Messiah came.
Luk 19:41  And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept
over it,
Luk 19:42  Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this
thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid
from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall
cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on
every side,
Luk 19:44  And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children
within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another;
because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 19:45  And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them
that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46  Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of
prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Post by Zev
Translation: New American Standard Bible
Genesis 30:27
But Laban said to him, "If now it *pleases you*, stay with me;
I have divined that the LORD has blessed me on your account."
Genesis 32:5
I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants;
and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may *find favor* in your
sight.
Proverbs 3:4
So you will *find favor* and good repute
In the sight of God and man.
Proverbs 28:23
He who rebukes a man will afterward *find more favor*
Than he who flatters with the tongue.
end quotes
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Up and down; up and down.  They were supposed to be consistent,
not
falling away and coming back.
True, and the OT takes it into account.
I know; that is where I read it; the point is, IF Israel had always
always always obeyed the law, they would have been righteous, but they
could not and cannot. Those who hear the law are not justified; those
who do the law are, but no one does it, and you give yourself a pass,
thinking you do it well enough, when it is only well enough for you;
not well enough to find favor with God.
A Christian invention.
Our mission is to strive, always.
"Enough" is not a meaningful concept here.
Whatever you've decided your "mission" may be, that is not what the
Scriptures SAY.
Deut. 6:25  "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do
ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded
us."
Exactly.
That is the goal we are to strive for.
Christians under the new covenant are also to strive for the goal of
pleasing God, but still fall short, some more than others. So if you
can fall short under the old covenant, why do you think others can't
fall short under the new covenant, and if and when they do fall short
of perfection, that means "it doesn't WORK" (as you've said of the
'law written on the heart' of believers)?
I understand that Christians understand this as saying
that Christians will know what the right thing to do,
and will do it, because it's "written on their hearts".
I may be wrong, but if it means much less,
it's not much different from the "old" system.
I can't believe that; if it weren't much different from the old
covenant, then Jeremiah would NOT have said it is NOT according to the
old covenant. He would have said the opposite; that it is 'similar',
which is what you're claiming.

But you didn't address my question. You give Jews a pass under the old
covenant for not obeying all of the commandments, saying you're just
to strive to obey them, so why do you have a _double standard" when it
comes to the new covenant, and if people under the new covenant aren't
perfect under it, and simply strive to obey God, why do you say the
law written on the heart under the new covenant "doesn't work"? You
can't have it both ways, if striving to obey, but sometimes failing,
"doesn't work" for the new covenant, it also "doesn't work" for the
old covenant. Myself, I think perfection was demanded under the old
covenant, and that failure to reach perfection is why the law cannot/
did not justify anyone.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If many of a teacher's students fail,
it's probably the teacher's fault.
It's his failure.
You're projecting your own failure to understand; Christians are
not
failing.
But you don't need atonement for doing things
you were never told not to do.
As I said before, we're all born in iniquity, as King David indicated
he was himself, and are all therefore guilty of sin from even before
the day we were born.
Psalm 51 doesn't say that King David was a sinner before he was born
or that he needed atonement for sins he committed before his birth.
Yes it does.  You don't see what you don't want to see; there is no
other explanation for it.
Psa. 51:5  "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
Exactly.
Thanks.
I'm confused by your response. How could he have been shaped in
iniquity and conceived in sin if he were innocent when he was
conceived and his  body was formed.
Genesis 8:21 -
"...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth...".
Being evil as a youth is different than already being evil at the time
of conception in the womb.
Post by Zev
This verse, as the verse you quoted, Psalms 51:5,
doesn't say we were sinners before we were born
or that we need atonement for sins committed before birth.
If you're already wicked when you're first conceived as a fertilized
egg and then formed in the womb, there must be a reason. I believe it
was because we all rejected God in Heaven that we are all here in the
flesh; that we came from Heaven, and some who are saved will return to
Heaven.
Post by Zev
It's a statement of our imperfect humanity.
We are inclined to sin, it's innate.
Innate means born with it; that's not the same as being wicked at
_conception._
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
My answer centered on your word "must", as if they'd be damned if they
didn't do it. The problem is that obedience to the law of Moses has
never saved anyone. All it can do is curse you to damnation when you
fail to obey ALL of it ALL of your life.
Moses forced the Israelites to accept a Torah
which could only curse them?
That's wrong and it's not what the Bible itself says.
It would have blessed them if they had kept it. But they didn't keep
it. And even then, their sins would have been forgiven if they'd
turned to the Messiah when he came. So there was always a way out of
being cursed by failure to obey the law.
You just said that obedience to the law of Moses
has never saved anyone.
Why would Moses force the Israelites to accept a Torah
which would only curse them?
(before the time of Jesus, if you insist)
The Hebrew Scriptures say it was because the Israelites were
rebellious and stiff-necked that the Israelites almost always failed
to obey all of the statutes. They should have had a stronger belief
and obedience given what they were blessed to see in the way of
miracles.
Most Christians here say that the Israelite failure
was inevitable because they couldn't keep
*every* commandment.
You seem to be saying that they could have, but just didn't,
most of the time.
GOD said it was not too hard for them to obey it. So...

If every generation was given the miracles the Israelites were given,
you'd think they'd try very hard to obey everything God said, but even
the ones who saw the miracles very soon fell away.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Paul says the reason Israel was blinded to belief in the Messiah is so
everyone would be guilty before God, and it would then be just for God
to forgive the Gentiles (who had rejected YHWH), as well as the
Israelites.  I'll have to research that a bit to see if he backs that
up with the Hebrew Scriptures as he does much of what he says (but not
all).
Odi et amo.
Latin? I would have expected Hebrew if anything.
Post by Zev
I love Paul's Pharisaic arguments,
I hate his manipulation of concepts and verses.
Maybe you just don't understand the concepts and verses, but he did.

I should have checked on that verse before I spoke. Paul did not say
Israel was blinded so that both Jew and Gentile would be guilty before
God. It did not have to do with God blinding Israel, it had to do
with Israel's inability to obey the law. IOW, Gentiles rejected God/
YHWH, and Israel broke the covenant with YHWH by failing to obey the
law as they should, so both Jew and Gentile were guilty before God, so
both need the Messiah for forgiveness of sins.

Rom. 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it
saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become GUILTY before God."




Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith
to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and
all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be
justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is
manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus
Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no
difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
You said that Jesus was supposed to make a dramatic change.
Post by Zev
Unlike Moses, he failed at that.
Why do you say he didn't?
Because already believers have 'the law written on their heart',
salvation has already come.
Forced conversions are not binding, but they happened,
and during the inquisition, "backsliders" were burnt at the stake.
Don't bother telling me what's "written on their heart".
There are some evil people in all religions, Christianity and Judaism
alike.  Are you accountable for the sins of your fathers, such as
having the Messiah put to death?  Don't try to blame that on me; I
certainly would not force a conversion, nor have I ever been violent
or would be violent. It is your own problem if you never convert, not
mine. I have no interest in converting you and in my last post I
indicated I wasn't even interesting in CONVERSING with you on this
subject anymore. And that is because you seem to be getting rather
hostile and insulting, like you are right now.
I'm not blaming anyone, certainly not you.
I'm just questioning the "written on their heart" business.
It doesn't seem to work.
I think it is more about conscience than apparent perfection.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
2012-06-17 04:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT? People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
God didn't destroy them for disobedience, so they found grace for
their sins and rebelliousness against Him.
Looking at the chapter (Jeremiah 31)
this doesn't look out of place.
It's a plausible way of understanding the verse,
but that's not what the Hebrew phrase means.
That's why I think the verse is speaking of praise
for the Israelites' willingness to follow
Moses into the desert.
They initially had willingness to follow Moses from Egypt to the
desert, but they soon regretted it and blamed Moses for bringing them
there simply to die of thirst and hunger. How is that finding grace
with God?
They should have entered the Promised Land with Out Demanding to Slaughter all who
already lived there, first!
Zev
2012-06-17 16:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
On Jun 13, 3:45 pm, Linda Lee
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
God didn't destroy them for disobedience, so they found grace for
their sins and rebelliousness against Him.
Looking at the chapter (Jeremiah 31)
this doesn't look out of place.
It's a plausible way of understanding the verse,
but that's not what the Hebrew phrase means.
That's why I think the verse is speaking of praise
for the Israelites' willingness to follow
Moses into the desert.
They initially had willingness to follow Moses from Egypt to the
desert, but they soon regretted it and blamed Moses for bringing them
there simply to die of thirst and hunger. How is that finding grace
with God? And I notice that it is only those who God didn't order to
be killed for their sins who had found "grace".
Of course.
Those who died in Egypt didn't follow Moses into the wilderness.
And I've already told you how easy it is to criticize
from the comfort of your home.
Post by Linda Lee
Jer 31:2 "Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the
sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause
him to rest."
Notice a similar expression here:
Jeremiah 2:2 -
"Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying,
Thus says the Lord; I remember you, the kindness of your youth,
the love of your espousals,
when you went after me in the wilderness,
in a land that was not sown".

There's no Christian "Grace" here either.
It's another side of Israel's past,
one which deriders often forget.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Christians under the new covenant are also to strive for the goal of
pleasing God, but still fall short, some more than others. So if you
can fall short under the old covenant, why do you think others can't
fall short under the new covenant, and if and when they do fall short
of perfection, that means "it doesn't WORK" (as you've said of the
'law written on the heart' of believers)?
I understand that Christians understand this as saying
that Christians will know what the right thing to do,
and will do it, because it's "written on their hearts".
I may be wrong, but if it means much less,
it's not much different from the "old" system.
I can't believe that; if it weren't much different from the old
covenant, then Jeremiah would NOT have said it is NOT according to the
old covenant. He would have said the opposite; that it is 'similar',
which is what you're claiming.
We've discussed that chapter.
I said the difference was in
the more particular punishment system,
not in the laws.
Post by Linda Lee
But you didn't address my question. You give Jews a pass under the old
covenant for not obeying all of the commandments, saying you're just
to strive to obey them, so why do you have a _double standard" when it
comes to the new covenant, and if people under the new covenant aren't
perfect under it, and simply strive to obey God, why do you say the
law written on the heart under the new covenant "doesn't work"? You
can't have it both ways, if striving to obey, but sometimes failing,
"doesn't work" for the new covenant, it also "doesn't work" for the
old covenant.
We've found common ground here...
Post by Linda Lee
Myself, I think perfection was demanded under the old
covenant, and that failure to reach perfection is why the law cannot/
did not justify anyone.
...but not here.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Psa. 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother
conceive me."
Exactly.
Thanks.
I'm confused by your response. How could he have been shaped in
iniquity and conceived in sin if he were innocent when he was
conceived and his body was formed.
Genesis 8:21 -
"...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth...".
Being evil as a youth is different than already being evil at the time
of conception in the womb.
True, but if I'm right about Psalms 51:5,
Genesis 8:21 expresses a similar idea.

Psalm 51 is more about procreators than embryos
and was inspired by the episode with Bathsheba.
(2 Samuel 11-12)

My view of verse 5 has David saying:
I made the mistake because I'm human.
Your view has him saying:
It's worse than we thought, I have an "Original Sin" too.
I think, in the context, my view makes more sense.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
This verse, as the verse you quoted, Psalms 51:5,
doesn't say we were sinners before we were born
or that we need atonement for sins committed before birth.
If you're already wicked when you're first conceived as a fertilized
egg and then formed in the womb, there must be a reason. I believe it
was because we all rejected God in Heaven that we are all here in the
flesh; that we came from Heaven, and some who are saved will return to
Heaven.
Post by Zev
It's a statement of our imperfect humanity.
We are inclined to sin, it's innate.
Innate means born with it; that's not the same as being wicked at
_conception._
Your knowledge of Latin allows you to nitpick.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Most Christians here say that the Israelite failure
was inevitable because they couldn't keep
*every* commandment.
You seem to be saying that they could have, but just didn't,
most of the time.
GOD said it was not too hard for them to obey it. So...
But if he demands perfection, it *is* too hard...
Post by Linda Lee
If every generation was given the miracles the Israelites were given,
you'd think they'd try very hard to obey everything God said, but even
the ones who saw the miracles very soon fell away.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Paul says the reason Israel was blinded to belief in the Messiah is so
everyone would be guilty before God, and it would then be just for God
to forgive the Gentiles (who had rejected YHWH), as well as the
Israelites. I'll have to research that a bit to see if he backs that
up with the Hebrew Scriptures as he does much of what he says (but not
all).
Odi et amo.
Latin? I would have expected Hebrew if anything.
Be careful what you wish for ;-)
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
I love Paul's Pharisaic arguments,
I hate his manipulation of concepts and verses.
Maybe you just don't understand the concepts and verses, but he did.
I should have checked on that verse before I spoke. Paul did not say
Israel was blinded so that both Jew and Gentile would be guilty before
God. It did not have to do with God blinding Israel, it had to do
with Israel's inability to obey the law. IOW, Gentiles rejected God/
YHWH, and Israel broke the covenant with YHWH by failing to obey the
law as they should, so both Jew and Gentile were guilty before God, so
both need the Messiah for forgiveness of sins.
Rom. 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it
saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become GUILTY before God."
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith
to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and
all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be
justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is
manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus
Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption
Terry Cross
2012-06-17 21:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
On Jun 13, 3:45 pm, Linda Lee
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
God didn't destroy them for disobedience, so they found grace for
their sins and rebelliousness against Him.
Looking at the chapter (Jeremiah 31)
this doesn't look out of place.
It's a plausible way of understanding the verse,
but that's not what the Hebrew phrase means.
That's why I think the verse is speaking of praise
for the Israelites' willingness to follow
Moses into the desert.
They initially had willingness to follow Moses from Egypt to the
desert, but they soon regretted it and blamed Moses for bringing them
there simply to die of thirst and hunger. How is that finding grace
with God?  And I notice that it is only those who God didn't order to
be killed for their sins who had found "grace".
Of course.
Those who died in Egypt didn't follow Moses into the wilderness.
And I've already told you how easy it is to criticize
from the comfort of your home.
Post by Linda Lee
Jer 31:2  "Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the
sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause
him to rest."
Jeremiah 2:2 -
"Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying,
Thus says the Lord; I remember you, the kindness of your youth,
the love of your espousals,
when you went after me in the wilderness,
in a land that was not sown".
There's no Christian "Grace" here either.
It's another side of Israel's past,
one which deriders often forget.
Both verses appear in Jeremiah, but that is not a similar quote in
line with the subject under discussion. A statement similar to Jer
31:2 might be that those who survived the sword found safety in the
wilderness.

TCross

Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
2012-06-17 04:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT? People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
My examples prove that your understanding is anachronistic.
Because of that, you're mistaken about what
"finding grace in the wilderness" means.
Why not do the research, prove I'm wrong?
God didn't destroy them for disobedience, so they found grace for
their sins and rebelliousness against Him.
Looking at the chapter (Jeremiah 31)
this doesn't look out of place.
It's a plausible way of understanding the verse,
but that's not what the Hebrew phrase means.
That's why I think the verse is speaking of praise
for the Israelites' willingness to follow
Moses into the desert.
No, Numbers 13:: GOD told MOSES, to take his Bigot's, and get out, gave Covenant to
Zion, and Israel spent the next 40 years wandering!
Terry Cross
2012-06-15 18:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT?  People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
Hebrew is irrelevant, even if you knew what it is. Jesus and his
followers did not speak Hebrew, and Gospels did not pass through
Hebrew. Jesus and the people of his day spoke Aramaic, and Gospels
were probably written in Greek.

TCross
Zev
2012-06-16 18:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
It's as relevant as finding grace in the wilderness.
I think your being confused by the "grace" here.
"To find grace" means no more then "to find favor", "to like".
The phrase is not rare in the OT.
My point was that you're cherry-picking.
And who was given grace in the OT?  People like Abraham and David;
both of whom knew of the future incarnation of the Messiah (see Psalm
110 and John 8:56).
I found 40 examples of the two Hebrew words together,
the following is a selection.
I did the search because Terry asked for examples,
but I'm putting it here.
As you will see, your reading of the Hebrew as "Grace"
is anachronistic.
I know what grace means, Zev, and the true grace that finds favor with
the LORD is belief in Yahashua` the Messiah.
Of course you know what grace means,
but you don't know what the Hebrew words
sometimes translated as "to find grace" means.
Hebrew is irrelevant, even if you knew what it is.  Jesus and his
followers did not speak Hebrew, and Gospels did not pass through
Hebrew.  Jesus and the people of his day spoke Aramaic, and Gospels
were probably written in Greek.
The verse we're arguing about,
"finding grace in the wilderness",
is written in Hebrew.

Please try to keep up.
Linda Lee
2012-06-14 11:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Read Romans 5, 6, and 7; Paul was preaching to Israelites in the
epistle to the Romans, saying in Rom. 7:1, saying, " I speak to them
that know the law". He explains it better than I could, that believers
are not damned by failure to obey the law, but then again, we are not
to be deliberately sinful against our fellow man. You seem to think
it is okay for the Jews just to have ups and downs in obedience to the
law; that is not the case; failure at any time results in eternal
damnation. Maybe you can understand Paul better than you can
understand the Messiah.
Zev
2012-06-14 13:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Read Romans 5, 6, and 7; Paul was preaching to Israelites in the
epistle to the Romans, saying in Rom. 7:1, saying, " I speak to them
that know the law". He explains it better than I could, that believers
are not damned by failure to obey the law, but then again, we are not
to be deliberately sinful against our fellow man.  You seem to think
it is okay for the Jews just to have ups and downs in obedience to the
law; that is not the case; failure at any time results in eternal
damnation. Maybe you can understand Paul better than you can
understand the Messiah.
You asked:
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah
when he said to love God and love one's neighbor
is the sum of the law?

I replied:
2 doesn't equal 613.

You said:
The others are contained within the 2.

I responded with another question:
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?

I ask this question in order to understand your previous answers.
Do you need Romans to understand what you meant?
Terry Cross
2012-06-14 18:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Read Romans 5, 6, and 7; Paul was preaching to Israelites in the
epistle to the Romans, saying in Rom. 7:1, saying, " I speak to them
that know the law". He explains it better than I could, that believers
are not damned by failure to obey the law, but then again, we are not
to be deliberately sinful against our fellow man.  You seem to think
it is okay for the Jews just to have ups and downs in obedience to the
law; that is not the case; failure at any time results in eternal
damnation. Maybe you can understand Paul better than you can
understand the Messiah.
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah
when he said to love God and love one's neighbor
is the sum of the law?
2 doesn't equal 613.
The others are contained within the 2.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
I ask this question in order to understand your previous answers.
Do you need Romans to understand what you meant?
The Jews followed a false god or a horribly distorted understanding of
God. Much of the degradation of Jehovah comes from the writings of
Moses, but he is not the only one. The author of Esther is also
degraded.

What the Jews "must" do in this situation is debatable. If they do
anything other than what they are now doing, they cease to be Jews.

TCross
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
2012-06-15 04:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Cross
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement. If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Read Romans 5, 6, and 7; Paul was preaching to Israelites in the
epistle to the Romans, saying in Rom. 7:1, saying, " I speak to them
that know the law". He explains it better than I could, that believers
are not damned by failure to obey the law, but then again, we are not
to be deliberately sinful against our fellow man. You seem to think
it is okay for the Jews just to have ups and downs in obedience to the
law; that is not the case; failure at any time results in eternal
damnation. Maybe you can understand Paul better than you can
understand the Messiah.
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah
when he said to love God and love one's neighbor
is the sum of the law?
2 doesn't equal 613.
The others are contained within the 2.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
I ask this question in order to understand your previous answers.
Do you need Romans to understand what you meant?
The Jews followed a false god or a horribly distorted understanding of
God.
ROME, Interpreted Every "PAGAN" Book!
Linda Lee
2012-06-15 04:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Read Romans 5, 6, and 7; Paul was preaching to Israelites in the
epistle to the Romans, saying in Rom. 7:1, saying, " I speak to them
that know the law". He explains it better than I could, that believers
are not damned by failure to obey the law, but then again, we are not
to be deliberately sinful against our fellow man.  You seem to think
it is okay for the Jews just to have ups and downs in obedience to the
law; that is not the case; failure at any time results in eternal
damnation. Maybe you can understand Paul better than you can
understand the Messiah.
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah
when he said to love God and love one's neighbor
is the sum of the law?
2 doesn't equal 613.
The others are contained within the 2.
They are in the new covenant.
Post by Linda Lee
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
I ask this question in order to understand your previous answers.
Do you need Romans to understand what you meant?
I don't; I thought it might help you see that NOT following the law of
Moses does NOT mean believers are to act in a sinful manner. Of
course, if you refuse to read it, it won't help.

Zev, under the new covenant, the law of Moses is not necessary because
the law (i.e. the law to love God and love thy neighbor) would be
written on the heart, which is another way of saying they would know
how to love God and love their neighbor and would do so without having
to follow a written set of laws.
Zev
2012-06-15 06:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Read Romans 5, 6, and 7; Paul was preaching to Israelites in the
epistle to the Romans, saying in Rom. 7:1, saying, " I speak to them
that know the law". He explains it better than I could, that believers
are not damned by failure to obey the law, but then again, we are not
to be deliberately sinful against our fellow man.  You seem to think
it is okay for the Jews just to have ups and downs in obedience to the
law; that is not the case; failure at any time results in eternal
damnation. Maybe you can understand Paul better than you can
understand the Messiah.
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah
when he said to love God and love one's neighbor
is the sum of the law?
2 doesn't equal 613.
The others are contained within the 2.
They are in the new covenant.
Post by Linda Lee
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
I ask this question in order to understand your previous answers.
Do you need Romans to understand what you meant?
I don't; I thought it might help you see that NOT following the law of
Moses does NOT mean believers are to act in a sinful manner. Of
course, if you refuse to read it, it won't help.
Zev, under the new covenant, the law of Moses is not necessary because
the law (i.e. the law to love God and love thy neighbor) would be
written on the heart, which is another way of saying they would know
how to love God and love their neighbor and would do so without having
to follow a written set of laws.
So it's a dramatic change and Jesus needed a show
similar to that which Moses put on,
but he didn't have the support which Moses had.
QED
Linda Lee
2012-06-15 06:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah when he said to
love God and love one's neighbor is the sum of the law?
613 not = 2
I overlooked that statement.  If you don't do the things God said you
shouldn't do, and do perform the good things God said you should, that
is love of God and love of our fellow man.
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
Read Romans 5, 6, and 7; Paul was preaching to Israelites in the
epistle to the Romans, saying in Rom. 7:1, saying, " I speak to them
that know the law". He explains it better than I could, that believers
are not damned by failure to obey the law, but then again, we are not
to be deliberately sinful against our fellow man.  You seem to think
it is okay for the Jews just to have ups and downs in obedience to the
law; that is not the case; failure at any time results in eternal
damnation. Maybe you can understand Paul better than you can
understand the Messiah.
How did the Messiah make dramatic changes in the Torah
when he said to love God and love one's neighbor
is the sum of the law?
2 doesn't equal 613.
The others are contained within the 2.
They are in the new covenant.
Post by Linda Lee
In your view, must the Jews continue to keep
the commandments to the best of their ability?
I ask this question in order to understand your previous answers.
Do you need Romans to understand what you meant?
I don't; I thought it might help you see that NOT following the law of
Moses does NOT mean believers are to act in a sinful manner. Of
course, if you refuse to read it, it won't help.
Zev, under the new covenant, the law of Moses is not necessary because
the law (i.e. the law to love God and love thy neighbor) would be
written on the heart, which is another way of saying they would know
how to love God and love their neighbor and would do so without having
to follow a written set of laws.
So it's a dramatic change and Jesus needed a show
similar to that which Moses put on,
but he didn't have the support which Moses had.
QED
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his
brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as
the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.

I think we're about finished with this conversation; nothing I could
say would open your blind eyes.
Zev
2012-06-15 11:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Zev, under the new covenant, the law of Moses is not necessary because
the law (i.e. the law to love God and love thy neighbor) would be
written on the heart, which is another way of saying they would know
how to love God and love their neighbor and would do so without having
to follow a written set of laws.
So it's a dramatic change and Jesus needed a show
similar to that which Moses put on,
but he didn't have the support which Moses had.
QED
Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his
brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as
the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
Compare to the show Moses put on.
Miracles which were seen by millions of people!
All of them hearing God himself!
In the end, it worked.
The message got across, despite the backsliding.
Jesus was rejected by the Jews because of the poor comparison.
I think we're about finished with this conversation; nothing I could
say would open your blind eyes.
Irrelevant.
You need to explain why a Jew should abandon
his Torah and commandments on a much weaker proof
than that used to introduce the Torah in the first place.
Linda Lee
2012-06-15 13:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Zev, under the new covenant, the law of Moses is not necessary because
the law (i.e. the law to love God and love thy neighbor) would be
written on the heart, which is another way of saying they would know
how to love God and love their neighbor and would do so without having
to follow a written set of laws.
So it's a dramatic change and Jesus needed a show
similar to that which Moses put on,
but he didn't have the support which Moses had.
QED
Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his
brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as
the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
Compare to the show Moses put on.
Miracles which were seen by millions of people!
All of them hearing God himself!
In the end, it worked.
The message got across, despite the backsliding.
Then the message didn't get across because it didn't take. You don't
make much sense.
Post by Zev
Jesus was rejected by the Jews because of the poor comparison.
Because you're blind.
Post by Zev
I think we're about finished with this conversation; nothing I could
say would open your blind eyes.
Irrelevant.
You need to explain why a Jew should abandon
his Torah and commandments on a much weaker proof
than that used to introduce the Torah in the first place.
I don't "need to explain" anything; as I just said in the last post;
your spiritual condition is your problem, not mine. I believe the
Great Commission was given to the apostles (because the Messiah was
talking to the apostles at the time it was given), not to me.
Zev
2012-06-15 15:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Zev, under the new covenant, the law of Moses is not necessary because
the law (i.e. the law to love God and love thy neighbor) would be
written on the heart, which is another way of saying they would know
how to love God and love their neighbor and would do so without having
to follow a written set of laws.
So it's a dramatic change and Jesus needed a show
similar to that which Moses put on,
but he didn't have the support which Moses had.
QED
Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his
brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as
the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
Compare to the show Moses put on.
Miracles which were seen by millions of people!
All of them hearing God himself!
In the end, it worked.
The message got across, despite the backsliding.
Then the message didn't get across because it didn't take. You don't
make much sense.
If you read the posts between Rob and Randy,
you've seen this issue discussed time and again.
Failure because of human weakness doesn't abrogate the law.

The Covenant was made when every Israelite accepted the Law,
for himself and for future generations.
This didn't happen with Jesus.
That's why I say the "old" covenant still holds.
If you have an argument against this,
you're keeping it secret.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Jesus was rejected by the Jews because of the poor comparison.
Because you're blind.
Christians believe that Jews
were waiting for a messiah in Jesus' time,
They were receptive to the idea,
but he came with an empty hand.
That's the opposite of blindness.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
I think we're about finished with this conversation; nothing I could
say would open your blind eyes.
Irrelevant.
You need to explain why a Jew should abandon
his Torah and commandments on a much weaker proof
than that used to introduce the Torah in the first place.
I don't "need to explain" anything; as I just said in the last post;
your spiritual condition is your problem, not mine.
Obviously true, but this is what is missing in your posts.
That's why you go around in circles and don't get anywhere.
Post by Linda Lee
I believe the
Great Commission was given to the apostles (because the Messiah was
talking to the apostles at the time it was given), not to me.
Your faith is beautiful, Linda, but if it's blind faith
you shouldn't be calling me blind.
Linda Lee
2012-06-15 17:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Zev, under the new covenant, the law of Moses is not necessary because
the law (i.e. the law to love God and love thy neighbor) would be
written on the heart, which is another way of saying they would know
how to love God and love their neighbor and would do so without having
to follow a written set of laws.
So it's a dramatic change and Jesus needed a show
similar to that which Moses put on,
but he didn't have the support which Moses had.
QED
Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his
brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as
the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias
talking with him.
Compare to the show Moses put on.
Miracles which were seen by millions of people!
All of them hearing God himself!
In the end, it worked.
The message got across, despite the backsliding.
Then the message didn't get across because it didn't take. You don't
make much sense.
If you read the posts between Rob and Randy,
you've seen this issue discussed time and again.
Failure because of human weakness doesn't abrogate the law.
I can understand that; it is just as the failure of some Christians
(or even the failure of the heads of the Catholic Church a few hundred
years after Christ and for many future power-mad centuries) doesn't
make original Christianity a lie or Christ a liar.
Post by Zev
The Covenant was made when every Israelite accepted the Law,
for himself and for future generations.
But it still only lasted until the new covenant came in. There's
obviously an old covenant if there is to be a "new covenant" (Jer.
31:31), and it's also obvious that a new covenant replaces the old
covenant. Yes, I Know it says for a thousand generations, which is an
idiom, and not literal, and I know it says it was "perpetual", but
that doesn't mean it is observed for perpetuity, only that it's
effects from when it was observed remain for eternity. It was given
for a purpose and the purpose was effective, even if the Israelites
failed to _observe_ it perfectly.
Post by Zev
This didn't happen with Jesus.
That's why I say the "old" covenant still holds.
If you have an argument against this,
you're keeping it secret.
The reason your people SHOULD have been able to obey the commandments
given to them by God is because your ancestors got to SEE the
miracles, yet they very soon fell away and began worshipping other
gods who could do NOTHING. So because the Israelites were rebellious
and disbelieving, the commandments only cursed them. Yet then and now
your people are like the relatives of the rich man in Luke 16:19-31
who Abraham said would not believe though one rose from the dead. And
this disbelief is partly because your people are confused about why
and for how long the law of Moses was given. It was given to show a
people who worshipped YHWH and through whom the Messiah would come
(even for believing Gentiles) were righteous (that righteousness
didn't happen, except for the remnant who turned to the Messiah), and
it was given only until the Messiah came (when God's law of love God
and love thy neighbor would be written on the heart of believers), and
he/Messiah came in the first century. You would not believe how hard
on myself I am; my conscience is greater than it might appear by my
words. I know every little thing I've ever done or said or even
thought that is wrong in any way, even as a child, that goes even
farther than anything written in the law of Moses. That is because
'the law' of loving God and loving neighbor is written on my heart.
But I can stand my lack of perfection because I know my sins are
forgiven and that God/Christ loves me. I know what I need to work on
(most of it evident here), but I don't expect to ever attain perfect
control.

By the way, I almost always call Christ the Messiah; it is a habit,
and I am not doing it just with you in this thread. In fact, I've
tried to call him Christ more often the last year or so since some
Christians here think it identifies Messianics or Messianic Jews
rather than Christians. I prefer the Messiah though; the word Christ
has a harsh sound, and they mean the same.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Jesus was rejected by the Jews because of the poor comparison.
Because you're blind.
Christians believe that Jews
were waiting for a messiah in Jesus' time,
They were receptive to the idea,
but he came with an empty hand.
That's the opposite of blindness.
He did not come with an empty hand; your people simply do not
understand the prophesies, and have even come up with newer
translations to confuse you even more. Didn't the Hebrew Scriptures
say God would blind the Israelites? Yes, they did (Isa. 6:9-10), but
it said there would remain a "holy seed" (that was the Israelites who
accepted Yahashua`/Jesus). Don't you think that was true? It seems
like I believe them more than you do.

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is
the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that
cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man
of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips:
for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in
his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched
thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I
send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but
understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears
heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear
with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be
healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the
cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and
the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great
forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and
shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in
them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the
substance thereof.


Yahashua` the Messiah said in reference to Isa. 6:9-10:
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall
have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken
away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing
see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which
saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing
ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should
understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should
heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for
they hear.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
I think we're about finished with this conversation; nothing I could
say would open your blind eyes.
Irrelevant.
You need to explain why a Jew should abandon
his Torah and commandments on a much weaker proof
than that used to introduce the Torah in the first place.
I don't "need to explain" anything; as I just said in the last post;
your spiritual condition is your problem, not mine.
Obviously true, but this is what is missing in your posts.
That's why you go around in circles and don't get anywhere.
I am not going around in circles just because I'm not getting anywhere
with you. I understand very well what I believe and why and what
Scriptures support it. You have so many misconceptions, it would take
a very long time to make any headway with you, and I really doubt it
would ever happen.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
I believe the
Great Commission was given to the apostles (because the Messiah was
talking to the apostles at the time it was given), not to me.
Your faith is beautiful, Linda, but if it's blind faith
you shouldn't be calling me blind.
You talk like that rabbi you quoted; your statement is dishonest, as
my "faith" cannot be both beautiful AND blind, and thus false, at the
same time. I don't think your faith is beautiful; I think it is
misguided and falls short of what God said. Thanks for attempting to
be nice, but placating doesn't work well on me.
Zev
2012-06-17 05:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If you read the posts between Rob and Randy,
you've seen this issue discussed time and again.
Failure because of human weakness doesn't abrogate the law.
I can understand that; it is just as the failure of some Christians
(or even the failure of the heads of the Catholic Church a few hundred
years after Christ and for many future power-mad centuries) doesn't
make original Christianity a lie or Christ a liar.
Post by Zev
The Covenant was made when every Israelite accepted the Law,
for himself and for future generations.
But it still only lasted until the new covenant came in. There's
obviously an old covenant if there is to be a "new covenant" (Jer.
31:31), and it's also obvious that a new covenant replaces the old
covenant. Yes, I Know it says for a thousand generations, which is an
idiom, and not literal, and I know it says it was "perpetual", but
that doesn't mean it is observed for perpetuity, only that it's
effects from when it was observed remain for eternity. It was given
for a purpose and the purpose was effective, even if the Israelites
failed to _observe_ it perfectly.
Post by Zev
This didn't happen with Jesus.
That's why I say the "old" covenant still holds.
If you have an argument against this,
you're keeping it secret.
The reason your people SHOULD have been able to obey the commandments
given to them by God is because your ancestors got to SEE the
miracles, yet they very soon fell away and began worshipping other
gods who could do NOTHING. So because the Israelites were rebellious
and disbelieving, the commandments only cursed them. Yet then and now
your people are like the relatives of the rich man in Luke 16:19-31
who Abraham said would not believe though one rose from the dead. And
this disbelief is partly because your people are confused about why
and for how long the law of Moses was given. It was given to show a
people who worshipped YHWH and through whom the Messiah would come
(even for believing Gentiles) were righteous (that righteousness
didn't happen, except for the remnant who turned to the Messiah), and
it was given only until the Messiah came (when God's law of love God
and love thy neighbor would be written on the heart of believers), and
he/Messiah came in the first century. You would not believe how hard
on myself I am; my conscience is greater than it might appear by my
words. I know every little thing I've ever done or said or even
thought that is wrong in any way, even as a child, that goes even
farther than anything written in the law of Moses. That is because
'the law' of loving God and loving neighbor is written on my heart.
But I can stand my lack of perfection because I know my sins are
forgiven and that God/Christ loves me. I know what I need to work on
(most of it evident here), but I don't expect to ever attain perfect
control.
It seems we wind up with very similar basic beliefs.
We both must do the best we can.
We don't claim perfection, individually or for the group.
We both ask for forgiveness, and,
we both expect to get it.
Post by Linda Lee
By the way, I almost always call Christ the Messiah; it is a habit,
and I am not doing it just with you in this thread. In fact, I've
tried to call him Christ more often the last year or so since some
Christians here think it identifies Messianics or Messianic Jews
rather than Christians. I prefer the Messiah though; the word Christ
has a harsh sound, and they mean the same.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Jesus was rejected by the Jews because of the poor comparison.
Because you're blind.
Christians believe that Jews
were waiting for a messiah in Jesus' time,
They were receptive to the idea,
but he came with an empty hand.
That's the opposite of blindness.
He did not come with an empty hand; your people simply do not
understand the prophesies, and have even come up with newer
translations to confuse you even more. Didn't the Hebrew Scriptures
say God would blind the Israelites? Yes, they did (Isa. 6:9-10), but
it said there would remain a "holy seed" (that was the Israelites who
accepted Yahashua`/Jesus). Don't you think that was true? It seems
like I believe them more than you do.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is
the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that
cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man
for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched
thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I
send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but
understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears
heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear
with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be
healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the
cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and
the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great
forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and
shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in
them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the
substance thereof.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall
have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken
away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing
see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which
saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should
understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should
heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for
they hear.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
I think we're about finished with this conversation; nothing I could
say would open your blind eyes.
Irrelevant.
You need to explain why a Jew should abandon
his Torah and commandments on a much weaker proof
than that used to introduce the Torah in the first place.
I don't "need to explain" anything; as I just said in the last post;
your spiritual condition is your problem, not mine.
Obviously true, but this is what is missing in your posts.
That's why you go around in circles and don't get anywhere.
I am not going around in circles just because I'm not getting anywhere
with you. I understand very well what I believe and why and what
Scriptures support it. You have so many misconceptions, it would take
a very long time to make any headway with you, and I really doubt it
would ever happen.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
I believe the
Great Commission was given to the apostles (because the Messiah was
talking to the apostles at the time it was given), not to me.
Your faith is beautiful, Linda, but if it's blind faith
you shouldn't be calling me blind.
You talk like that rabbi you quoted; your statement is dishonest, as
my "faith" cannot be both beautiful AND blind, and thus false, at the
same time. I don't think your faith is beautiful; I think it is
misguided and falls short of what God said. Thanks for attempting to
be nice, but placating doesn't work well on me.
We're not talking about true or false here.
I admire self-sacrificing Christians who,
through the centuries, gave their lives and fortunes
for what they believed.
At the same time, I reject many of those beliefs.
Zev
2012-06-17 16:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
If you read the posts between Rob and Randy,
you've seen this issue discussed time and again.
Failure because of human weakness doesn't abrogate the law.
I can understand that; it is just as the failure of some Christians
(or even the failure of the heads of the Catholic Church a few hundred
years after Christ and for many future power-mad centuries) doesn't
make original Christianity a lie or Christ a liar.
Post by Zev
The Covenant was made when every Israelite accepted the Law,
for himself and for future generations.
But it still only lasted until the new covenant came in. There's
obviously an old covenant if there is to be a "new covenant" (Jer.
31:31), and it's also obvious that a new covenant replaces the old
covenant. Yes, I Know it says for a thousand generations, which is an
idiom, and not literal, and I know it says it was "perpetual", but
that doesn't mean it is observed for perpetuity, only that it's
effects from when it was observed remain for eternity. It was given
for a purpose and the purpose was effective, even if the Israelites
failed to _observe_ it perfectly.
Post by Zev
This didn't happen with Jesus.
That's why I say the "old" covenant still holds.
If you have an argument against this,
you're keeping it secret.
The reason your people SHOULD have been able to obey the commandments
given to them by God is because your ancestors got to SEE the
miracles, yet they very soon fell away and began worshipping other
gods who could do NOTHING. So because the Israelites were rebellious
and disbelieving, the commandments only cursed them. Yet then and now
your people are like the relatives of the rich man in Luke 16:19-31
who Abraham said would not believe though one rose from the dead. And
this disbelief is partly because your people are confused about why
and for how long the law of Moses was given. It was given to show a
people who worshipped YHWH and through whom the Messiah would come
(even for believing Gentiles) were righteous (that righteousness
didn't happen, except for the remnant who turned to the Messiah), and
it was given only until the Messiah came (when God's law of love God
and love thy neighbor would be written on the heart of believers), and
he/Messiah came in the first century. You would not believe how hard
on myself I am; my conscience is greater than it might appear by my
words. I know every little thing I've ever done or said or even
thought that is wrong in any way, even as a child, that goes even
farther than anything written in the law of Moses. That is because
'the law' of loving God and loving neighbor is written on my heart.
But I can stand my lack of perfection because I know my sins are
forgiven and that God/Christ loves me. I know what I need to work on
(most of it evident here), but I don't expect to ever attain perfect
control.
It seems we wind up with very similar basic beliefs.
We both must do the best we can.
We don't claim perfection, individually or for the group.
We both ask for forgiveness, and,
we both expect to get it.
Post by Linda Lee
By the way, I almost always call Christ the Messiah; it is a habit,
and I am not doing it just with you in this thread. In fact, I've
tried to call him Christ more often the last year or so since some
Christians here think it identifies Messianics or Messianic Jews
rather than Christians. I prefer the Messiah though; the word Christ
has a harsh sound, and they mean the same.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Jesus was rejected by the Jews because of the poor comparison.
Because you're blind.
Christians believe that Jews
were waiting for a messiah in Jesus' time,
They were receptive to the idea,
but he came with an empty hand.
That's the opposite of blindness.
He did not come with an empty hand; your people simply do not
understand the prophesies, and have even come up with newer
translations to confuse you even more. Didn't the Hebrew Scriptures
say God would blind the Israelites? Yes, they did (Isa. 6:9-10), but
it said there would remain a "holy seed" (that was the Israelites who
accepted Yahashua`/Jesus). Don't you think that was true? It seems
like I believe them more than you do.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is
the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that
cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man
for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in
Isa 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched
thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I
send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but
understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears
heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear
with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be
healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the
cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and
the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great
forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and
shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in
them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the
substance thereof.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall
have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken
away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing
see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which
saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are
dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should
understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should
heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for
they hear.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
I think we're about finished with this conversation; nothing I could
say would open your blind eyes.
Irrelevant.
You need to explain why a Jew should abandon
his Torah and commandments on a much weaker proof
than that used to introduce the Torah in the first place.
I don't "need to explain" anything; as I just said in the last post;
your spiritual condition is your problem, not mine.
Obviously true, but this is what is missing in your posts.
That's why you go around in circles and don't get anywhere.
I am not going around in circles just because I'm not getting anywhere
with you. I understand very well what I believe and why and what
Scriptures support it. You have so many misconceptions, it would take
a very long time to make any headway with you, and I really doubt it
would ever happen.
Post by Zev
Post by Linda Lee
I believe the
Great Commission was given to the apostles (because the Messiah was
talking to the apostles at the time it was given), not to me.
Your faith is beautiful, Linda, but if it's blind faith
you shouldn't be calling me blind.
You talk like that rabbi you quoted; your statement is dishonest, as
my "faith" cannot be both beautiful AND blind, and thus false, at the
same time. I don't think your faith is beautiful; I think it is
misguided and falls short of what God said. Thanks for attempting to
be nice, but placating doesn't work well on me.
We're not talking about true or false here.
I admire self-sacrificing Christians who,
through the centuries, gave their lives and fortunes
for what they believed.
At the same time, I reject many of those beliefs.
Linda Lee
2012-06-16 23:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
When the Trinity doctrine was formed using Latin, the word persona (as
in three personae of God) meant mask or role. That is how I
understand it.

(See the Latin in "Origin" below):

per·so·na
   [per-soh-nuh]
noun, plural per·so·nae  [-nee], per·so·nas.
1. a person.
2. personae, the characters in a play, novel, etc.
3. the narrator of or a character in a literary work, sometimes
identified with the author.
4. (in the psychology of C. G. Jung) the mask or façade presented to
satisfy the demands of the situation or the environment and not
representing the inner personality of the individual; the public
personality ( contrasted with anima).
5. a person's perceived or evident personality, as that of a well-
known official, actor, or celebrity; personal image; public role.
Origin: 1905–10; < Latin persōna mask, character.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2012.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
2012-06-17 04:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
No one ever understood Trinity, vicarious atonement, a coexisting son
of God etc..
When the Trinity doctrine was formed using Latin,
After Rome, figured they had fed all the Christians to the Lions, and made
Caesar, the Symbol of the Peoples Crucified God.
Eliyahu
2012-06-13 06:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
They all heard it (and saw the miracles); but they didn't heed it.
Bs'd

The messiah is not supposed to do miracles, he is supposed to fulfill
the messianic prophecies.

JC didn't do that, so he was not the messiah.

And about his claim that he was God:

If he really performed these miracles, then applies to him the law of
G.d that says: "If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of
dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes
to pass whereof he spake onto thee, saying: Let us go after other gods
which thou has not known, and let us serve them; Thou shall not
hearken to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams, for Y-H-W-H
your G.d proveth you, whether you love Y-H-W-H thy G.d with all your
heart and all your soul. You shall walk after Y-H-W-H your G.d and
fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall
serve Him and cleave to Him. And that prophet or dreamer of dreams
shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from Y-
H-W-H your G.d which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and
redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the
way which Y-H-W-H thy G.d commanded thee to walk in. So shall thou put
the evil away from the midst of thee." Deuteronomy 13:1-5.
Post by Linda Lee
From the days when they came out of Egypt, to the days of the Messiah
(and even to this day), they didn't obey the law.
In John 7:19 the Messiah said, "Did not Moses give you the law, and
yet none of you keepeth the law?..."
Why should we believe that liar and false prophet?
Post by Linda Lee
Num 21:5  And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6  And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Num 21:7  Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8  And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9  And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
And Israel served Y-H-W-H all the days of Joshua, and all the days of
the elders that outlived Joshua, and had known all the work of Y-H-W-
H, that he had wrought for Israel.
Post by Linda Lee
Post by Zev
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Many proofs were given in the Messiah's day, and once again the
Israelites heard it (and saw the miracles), but the majority of them
didn't heed it.
The one proof that was needed, the fulfilling of the messianic
prophecies, was not given.


Eliyahu
Michael Christ
2012-06-12 19:58:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Christ
If God does not give you the revelation, then there will never be
enough proof.
That makes sense, and it's probably true.
But compare to Moses.
God wanted the Israelites to accept the Torah.
Every one heard the message.
After Korah, there was no argument over it.
Jesus was rejected by the vast majority of those
who lived in his time, who knew him first hand.
The difference is glaring, you don't revelation to see it.
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Good question.

Because the gospel is a mystery so that men might not glory in their
intellect and the power of their minds, but that it is understood
before all creation that salvation is of God alone and Him alone
through the revelation of the Lamb of God (His only Son) who was slain
once and for all for the redemption of men from their sin.

I praise the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the One true God, to Him
be the glory and to Him alone...and it is! :-).

The Old Covenant regarding Moses you mentioned about the Israelites
accepting the Torah and there being no argument over it. True, but
they didn't live up to it. So God made a New Covenant, which is a
mystery that can only be revealed by Him to those who seek Him with
all their heart.

This I know though, I was born a gentile, so I moved along the highway
in a Ford, but if a true Israelite who really knows his Torah (in
heart) catches on, he is like a Ferrari. :-).




Michael Christ
Zev
2012-06-13 09:28:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Zev
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Good question.
Because the gospel is a mystery so that men might not glory in their
intellect and the power of their minds, but that it is understood
before all creation that salvation is of God alone and Him alone
through the revelation of the Lamb of God (His only Son) who was slain
once and for all for the redemption of men from their sin.
I praise the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the One true God, to Him
be the glory and to Him alone...and it is! :-).
The Old Covenant regarding Moses you mentioned about the Israelites
accepting the Torah and there being no argument over it. True, but
they didn't live up to it. So God made a New Covenant, which is a
mystery that can only be revealed by Him to those who seek Him with
all their heart.
What about a Jew who says he's not going to abandon his
God-given Torah and commandments without proof
because in the past, those who were slack were punished,
and anyone who says different must be an evil person.

Is that Jew at fault because some mystery wasn't revealed to him?
Is he required to seek that which goes against
so much he and his fathers were taught?
Post by Michael Christ
This I know though, I was born a gentile, so I moved along the highway
in a Ford, but if a true Israelite who really knows his Torah (in
heart) catches on, he is like a Ferrari. :-).
Michael Christ
2012-06-13 10:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zev
Post by Michael Christ
Post by Zev
Why was God generous with proofs in one case,
and parsimonious in the other?
Good question.
Because the gospel is a mystery so that men might not glory in their
intellect and the power of their minds, but that it is understood
before all creation that salvation is of God alone and Him alone
through the revelation of the Lamb of God (His only Son) who was slain
once and for all for the redemption of men from their sin.
I praise the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the One true God, to Him
be the glory and to Him alone...and it is! :-).
The Old Covenant regarding Moses you mentioned about the Israelites
accepting the Torah and there being no argument over it.  True, but
they didn't live up to it.  So God made a New Covenant, which is a
mystery that can only be revealed by Him to those who seek Him with
all their heart.
What about a Jew who says he's not going to abandon his
God-given Torah and commandments without proof
because in the past, those who were slack were punished,
and anyone who says different must be an evil person.
Is that Jew at fault because some mystery wasn't revealed to him?
Is he required to seek that which goes against
so much he and his fathers were taught?
Heavens no, he must not do away with anything, he must do what has
been asked of him from the beginning.

That man must offer himself up to the Lord God of Israel who is worthy
to be worshiped with all his heart, all his soul, all his mind, and
all his strength according to the Torah.

For the Lord God of Israel searches the Earth for those who would
worship Him.

Then God will do something.

I can guarantee you though, it will not be what that man expects. As
it is written...

Isa_55:9 (KJV) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are
my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. As
Abraham came to know.

If a man spends his life trying to prove that Jesus is not the
Messiah, what good is it if that man he has not turned to the LORD
with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might,
according to all the law of Moses?

Let that which needs to be done be done, then that which can be done
can be done. Otherwise, is it not vanity??

Simple really.



Michael Christ
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